When Should Plagiarised Vtubers Get Their Own Tag?

If a vtuber's avatar is a copy of an existing character, what kind of changes/differences do there need to be, if any, for the avatar to be considered a separate entity that needs its own tag? Or should it never be considered a separate entity?

This question came up due to post #4383555. A youtuber named Ceia decided to start using a virtual avatar. What he came up with is just Suomi with a different set of clothes. He also commissioned artwork of Suomi in this clothing which is what post #4383555 is. And this artwork has been tagged with ceia (vtuber).

In this case, should this new vtuber tag have been created and applied to this post? If yes, does that also mean that the suomi kp31 (girls frontline) tag should be removed as the character is not Suomi?

And in general where is the line drawn? If a person named George uses a Reimu avatar but has a top hat on, does that qualify for a 'George (vtuber)' tag?

Sounds like a cookie (touhou) situation. Personally I'd tag both the original character and the vtuber character on the post, if only because the design (the clothes she wears) is distinct enough to be recognizable.

I'd say yes, if their avatar is clearly based one an existing character they should get both tags.

nonamethanks said:

Sounds like a cookie (touhou) situation. Personally I'd tag both the original character and the vtuber character on the post, if only because the design (the clothes she wears) is distinct enough to be recognizable.

Thought it might be like that situation, but wasn't quite sure as I haven't delved into what exactly Cookie is, so never figured out how its tagging works.
I understand why both tags would get used and don't disagree enough to say it must be changed, but still feels wrong since the avatar isn't truly Suomi.

Sanctity said:

Thought it might be like that situation, but wasn't quite sure as I haven't delved into what exactly Cookie is, so never figured out how its tagging works.

From what I could understand, cookie characters get their own chartags mainly because of the VAs behind the series of videos that constitute cookie, so this feels like a very similar situation. See for example reu.

Even before Ceia, there have been VTubers which skirted the line of copyrighted designs, most famously in the case of the original leader of BANs, Bitou Kaiji. His avatar was literally just a crudely drawn Kaiji with a moving mouth, his backstory literally copied Kaiji's, and he quoted him too. He became infamous, and was slain by copyright ninjas. While we haven't gotten any uploads of art starring Bitou Kaiji, only that of his successor, I imagine folks here would agree that he should not only be tagged as Itou Kaiji, but also as Bitou Kaiji, were he uploaded (unless it got to the point where all new Itou Kaiji posts were just Bitou, in which case I'd imagine there'd be a different opinion).

This isn't accounting for the VTubers out there that don't straight-up rip-off but rather just knockoff a given IP, as seen among other members of BANs and beyond.

Ceia clearly falls closer to Bitou Kaiji's case, as not only is it an Anmiface-like, but his model's design has Suomi's headband. With Dolls there's a bit of fudging given that in-lore there can be many of them, but in this case it is clearly intending to evoke the Suomi players can get a hold of (which had thus far also been Ceia's representation online), with a unique attire to otherwise distinguish it from the real Suomi. So I imagine that warrants keeping the Suomi tag on the post, for now.

nonamethanks said:

From what I could understand, cookie characters get their own chartags mainly because of the VAs behind the series of videos that constitute cookie, so this feels like a very similar situation. See for example reu.

Right, that much I've understood, but I've never got what makes some artworks the Cookie character instead of the original outside of tags the artist used. Some of them you can take a guess like post #4310290 has 4 Cookie Reimus that are each different probably due to art styles used for the videos the VAs were in. But then you have others like post #4339209 which is literally just plain old Parsee yet the original source was tagged as the Cookie version for some reason.

Sanctity said:

But then you have others like post #4339209 which is literally just plain old Parsee yet the original source was tagged as the Cookie version for some reason.

Part of the reason leans back into that aspect of art styles you mentioned for the Reimus (a better example being Nyon, whose most drawn design is the artstyle in the first scene they appear in). Another, more cynical, reason can be that the artist just decided to tag it Cookie to get more rabid eyes on it (an element which is even used as a point in Self Contradiction☆).

Damian0358 said:

Another, more cynical, reason can be that the artist just decided to tag it Cookie to get more rabid eyes on it (an element which is even used as a point in Self Contradiction☆).

Oh that would make sense for some of them. Would be nice if taggers wouldn't add the Cookie tags for when the artist most likely did it for that reason, but that would be such a huge ask that it isn't feasible because how can you 100% sure?

Also that Bitou Kaiji situation would be interesting. I would be in the separate tags camp for that as well. I see that as like they were twins. Same look, but different persons.

Sanctity said:

Right, that much I've understood, but I've never got what makes some artworks the Cookie character instead of the original outside of tags the artist used. Some of them you can take a guess like post #4310290 has 4 Cookie Reimus that are each different probably due to art styles used for the videos the VAs were in. But then you have others like post #4339209 which is literally just plain old Parsee yet the original source was tagged as the Cookie version for some reason.

The thing that makes that Parsee her Cookie version is her hair. Canon Parsee doesn't look like that, but that specific version of her always has those parted bangs. Most of the Cookie counterparts are like that, easily recognizable by a specific physical trait or some other recurring detail.

blindVigil said:

The thing that makes that Parsee her Cookie version is her hair. Canon Parsee doesn't look like that, but that specific version of her always has those parted bangs. Most of the Cookie counterparts are like that, easily recognizable by a specific physical trait or some other recurring detail.

Ah, so that's it for Parsee. But that does beg the question, is such a small difference worth a separate character tag and why? And if so, when does it become a separate character tag? The difference only being something like hairstyle seems insignificant for Touhou fanart where artists exercise a lot of artistic freedom. And plenty of them having their own recurring details.
For example:

• post #4357285 has parted bangs yet is not tagged as the Cookie version. Same for post #2857855.
• post #2988620 has the Cookie tags but bangs are not parted. (Maybe its due to the daikon?)
• Tsumaseu's Youmu has a unique jacket. What's the requirement for Youmus wearing that exact jacket to get its own character tag?

In my view, stuff like the Cookie tags makes sense when it is a clear reference to the material. Like post #4328635.
Ultimately it really doesn't matter much, just kinda of interesting to think about.

Sanctity said:

In short, Cookie tagging comes down to a lot of context, artist history, and in-jokes about each character. For JOKER:
1. Almost always seen with a cyan background. This is because Parsee has almost every color of the rainbow on her somewhere, so MAD creators needed a high contrast color. Most other Cookie characters use blue or green screens.
2. Associated with daikon due to saying, eating, and liking daikon in her most well-known appearance.
3. The parted bangs can be an indicator of it being JOKER, but sometimes not. Cookie characters get some art before their design gets codified by popular opinion, so that's where the outliers are.
4. Appears in a serafuku because there is a video of the VA herself dancing in a serafuku.
5. Associated with Suzu as Marisa for reasons beyond my understanding.

Generally, the best way to tell if something is Cookie without the indicators of each of the characters is the artist. If the artist has drawn Cookie or retweets Cookie, then it's probably Cookie. Ootsuki Wataru has shown little or no interest in Cookie, so his Parsee is just Parsee.

This is sorta the flip side of this discussion, what about characters that are clearly completely different from their (presumed) source material? I ran into this in things like post #1016440, which is purportedly based on Rozen Maiden characters but looking nothing like them at all. They're still tagged under the original names, even though they don't look the same, don't act the same, and really, are OCs in all but name.

thelieutenant said:

Thanks for that breakdown. Would be cool if the Cookie characters' wikis had that level of info.

kozaki.saya said:

This is sorta the flip side of this discussion, what about characters that are clearly completely different from their (presumed) source material? I ran into this in things like post #1016440, which is purportedly based on Rozen Maiden characters but looking nothing like them at all. They're still tagged under the original names, even though they don't look the same, don't act the same, and really, are OCs in all but name.

Oh god, I forgot about that artist. You cannot convince me that post #2753698 is Suigintou.

Sanctity said:

Ah, so that's it for Parsee. But that does beg the question, is such a small difference worth a separate character tag and why? And if so, when does it become a separate character tag? The difference only being something like hairstyle seems insignificant for Touhou fanart where artists exercise a lot of artistic freedom. And plenty of them having their own recurring details.

In general, creating tags is done with the intent of allowing people to find something they might be looking for. Unless Tsumaseu's Youmu suddenly gets really popular and receives a lot of fanart from other artists, you should be able to find most posts featuring her by just doing the search you just linked. If she did get so popular, then it might be worth making a separate tag for her, so that people can find the art of her not done by her artist. This has been done for some fanworks, like Touhou Tag Dream.

For Cookie, the designs and references are consistent between individual artists, and aren't specific to any one artist, so a way is needed to find them. Thus, we have Cookie (Touhou). Then, you can't just have a copyright with dozens of characters that get lots of fanart and not have tags for them. It's easier to look at it as tagging the actresses, rather than just versions of a character. Reu (cookie) is undeniably Reimu, so she should obviously be tagged Hakurei Reimu, but she's also her own person, who is drawn with a consistent appearance and references. Then there's like a dozen different Cookie actresses that have played Reimu, each with their own distinct fan designs. We can't just say they don't deserve their own tags because they happen to only have one or two minor details differentiating them, when multiple unrelated artists are consistently drawing these characters the same way every time. No one wants to do a cookie_(touhou) hakurei_reimu search just to find that one post of the specific person they're looking for.