Posted under Tags
I looked through the ninja tag and other than katanas, some chinese dress/leotard like clothes and the occasional mouth mask there really isnt anything linking the characters (well, 1girl and revealing clothes but this is Danbooru). I found only one post with the traditional kabuki ninja costume (post #4111297), though I certainly havent looked at every post tagged ninja.
Is there any consensus what a ninja looks like? Should we nuke the tag?
Most female ninjas are probably not going to have the traditional kabuki ninja look. Can't even think of any notable fictional ones who wear that... aside from some old Doraemon-era ones that I don't remember. And those usually have their costumes colored magenta or pink.
Anyway, most of the time this "kunoichi archetype" is going to be someone wearing a mixture of short_kimono, fishnet fabric, mouth mask, scarf; paired with ninja accoutrements and gear (shared with their male counterparts) like kunai, shruiken, throwing needles, eggshell grenades (etc), short katanas (AKA ninjato) and scrolls (often held in the mouth). If the kunoichi has a wind 'element', then she's also likely to be depicted with a pinwheel or a pinwheel ornament (Kazamaki Matsuri being a recent example). And when they are using their techniques, they often employ Kujiin hand seals.
So, they are multiple elements above that add to the overall ninja look. The more of the above "design elements" a character has, the more unambiguously they look like a ninja. For borderline examples (often those that merely look like somebody wearing a sexy kimono or leotard), most people wouldn't consider them ninja (or kunoichi) unless they are actually holding ninja weapons/equipment or performing a ninja technique (with all the characteristic hand seals, and perhaps biting onto a scroll for good measure).
Sort of like the "magic user" group really. There's a bunch of assorted "design elements" that make a character look like a "magic user", and those that tick more of these "design elements" are unambiguously a magic user of some kind, even if they aren't casting magic. But the borderline examples need to actually be casting magic (or holding mage staves or other implements) for people to consider them "magic users". And some still don't really count (for most people) no matter how much magic they cast, because they have barely any of the 'mage' look at all.
(Swap all the "magic user" and "mage" from the above for "ninja", and "magic" for "ninja techniques", and the same argument applies in this case for ninja/kunoichi.)
Anyhow, I think there used to be separate tags, one for ninja and one for kunoichi, before the latter was aliased into the former. If you want a dedicated tag for kabuki-style ninjas, without all the kunoichi (sexy or otherwise) examples getting in... perhaps best to separate the two tags then garden them?
That said, male ninjas in newer works also tend to have a similar look (short kimono and fishnet fabric too, but less 'sexier'), so maybe create a dedicated kabuki ninja tag to tag those "traditional ninjas"? Or perhaps a kuroko costume/black_stagehand_costume tag for the "black stagehand uniform" later adapted as the stereotypical ninja costume (because audiences ignore those characters, thinking they are just stagehands, so "surprise ninjas" on stage also wear the same costumes). Use this kuroko costume in conjunction with ninja to find the stereotypical kabuki ninja then.
NNescio said:
That said, male ninjas in newer works also tend to have a similar look (short kimono and fishnet fabric too, but less 'sexier'), so maybe create a dedicated kabuki ninja tag to tag those "traditional ninjas"? Or perhaps a kuroko costume/black_stagehand_costume tag for the "black stagehand uniform" later adapted as the stereotypical ninja costume (because audiences ignore those characters, thinking they are just stagehands, so "surprise ninjas" on stage also wear the same costumes). Use this kuroko costume in conjunction with ninja to find the stereotypical kabuki ninja then.
Might be easier just making the tag named something like traditional_ninja, or at least alias that to your proposed tag so that it'd be potentially easier to remember. Having a tag for the more traditional style would be ideal at least for covering those kinds of depictions.
Ive found only one "true" traditional ninja post (linked above) so far so a tag for it would seem superfluous.
The problem I have with the tag is that it has such a fluffy definition. I would start cleaning the tag if I knew how to.
post #4244399: She has a kunai and a katana but wears a bikini.
post #4567223: Short kimono style clothes but no weapons.
post #4461643: Leotard and machete?
post #3312396: Naked, but arguably making a hand seal.
Where do I draw the line?
ion288 said:
Ive found only one "true" traditional ninja post (linked above) so far so a tag for it would seem superfluous.
Well... think these probably count?
ion288 said:
The problem I have with the tag is that it has such a fluffy definition. I would start cleaning the tag if I knew how to.
post #4244399: She has a kunai and a katana but wears a bikini.
post #4567223: Short kimono style clothes but no weapons.
post #4461643: Leotard and machete?
post #3312396: Naked, but arguably making a hand seal.Where do I draw the line?
So, overall, I'd admit the lines are still somewhat fuzzy. I know it when I see it, but if you want me to pin down an exact scoring system and threshold to count as "ninja-y"... that's not going to be possible. Granted, a lot of tags also have similar problems, because there's often some element of subjectivity.
But... naked people or people wearing just "one ninja outfit element" generally wouldn't be enough to count. And the four examples you listed pretty much only have "one ninja element" each, so that's why I wouldn't count them as ninjas. So, if you want me to draw a line...
Updated by NNescio
Alright, so Ive made a primary clean up of the Naruto_(series) tag. (Have regrets, much bad art.) And I found several posts that I feel uncertain about.
post #264276: Hes got a mouth mask, bandaged legs, back-hand plate (Which we really need a tag for), forehead protector (Is that a ninja thing or just a Naruto thing?) and in this image he is actually holding a kunai. His vest on the other hand looks more like a military operator and he appears to be wearing a modern jumpsuit. Does this qualify as a ninja? If yes, would it without the kunai?
post #157002: Does any of these girls qualify as kunoichi? I do see a lot of fishnets, and Temari is wearing a kimono like garment.
post #4241026: Perhaps a better example?
post #1842644: Does any of these qualify?
And a few non Naruto examples.
post #4379713: Kimono-ish dress, kuji-in and a fan. Is it enough?
post #3623461: I was told this does qualify as a ninja though I dont really see it myself.
post #82563: Naked, and she hasnt got many ninja accessories but the image feels more ninja somehow.
Anyone is welcome to comment. Otherwise it will just be me and @NNescio deciding what a ninja is on Danbooru.
ion288 said:
Alright, so Ive made a primary clean up of the Naruto_(series) tag. (Have regrets, much bad art.) And I found several posts that I feel uncertain about.
post #264276: Hes got a mouth mask, bandaged legs, back-hand plate (Which we really need a tag for), forehead protector (Is that a ninja thing or just a Naruto thing?) and in this image he is actually holding a kunai. His vest on the other hand looks more like a military operator and he appears to be wearing a modern jumpsuit. Does this qualify as a ninja? If yes, would it without the kunai?
Yes. Kakashi usually counts for me, and that's mostly because of the face mask + forehead protector. And the rest of the outfit looking vaguely 'stealthy' enough. I would usually consider him a ninja even without explicit ninja tools. It is still kinda borderline though, so depending on the angle of the shot (obscuring or de-emphasizing some parts of the outfit) I might still not consider him a ninja for tagging purposes.
Though, yes, the Konoha flak jacket does detract from the look somewhat (the ninja theme, not making a comment on the overall design) and makes the other flak jacket wearing 'ninjas' look more like semi-modern soldiers or military operators instead of... well ninjas. (Though I've no doubt that that the 'semi-modern military look is intended by the artist to 'update' the ninja look and make them stand out a bit from ninjas in other copyrights.) Kakashi is still okay, IMHO, but Might Guy... definitely no longer looks like a ninja.
As for the forehead protector, it's another ninja trope. Not exclusive to them though (of course, neither is mouth mask or fishnet fabric, but certain patterns of such are). It's kinda related to martial arts related characters getting a headband. But having a headbands of a certain shape/size/color are associated with ninjas, especially if they have a strip of armor plate in the center to act as impromptu armor. Having an etched crest of some sort further reinforces this.
The forehead protector trope predates Naruto. The crest part too, though that's usually more subtle. Though, think Naruto is the one that popularized the 'crest identification' part of it (which, if you think about it, is kinda silly for a "stealth operative" to have), making it more overt.
ion288 said:
post #157002: Does any of these girls qualify as kunoichi? I do see a lot of fishnets, and Temari is wearing a kimono like garment.
Yes. Mostly it's the foreheader protectors that push it over the edge for me, though having multiple girls within close proximity with each other with vaguely-ninja themed outfits also help reinforce each other's 'kunoichi traits'.
ion288 said:
post #4241026: Perhaps a better example?
Borderline. Maybe. There are fishnets, the 'ninja' forehead protector, and the iron fan is sort of an exotic enough weapon* that also adds a bit to the ninja image... but the angle kinda make it hard for me to say yes. Overall, I wouldn't tag her ninja, but I wouldn't take off the tag either if someone does.
(*There are also some others like the kusarigama. Not as strongly ninja-themed as shuriken or kunai, but they are still exotic weapons that are rare to see on a more 'normal' warrior. And ninjas are often portrayed with unconventional weapons [which includes their more standard ninja stuff], so it adds to the 'ninja theme' somewhat when combined with other paraphernalia.)
ion288 said:
post #1842644: Does any of these qualify?
Yes. Individually most of them wouldn't count for me (in those poses as depicted in the image), but when taken as a whole all their various 'ninjany' bits add up enough for me to take a look and say, "Yep, that's a group of ninjas, alright."
Like how someone with just robes or a pointy hat or a wand (just one of the three) wouldn't look like a "magic user", but when you put a group of them together with a hat on one and a wand on another and robes on some other... the whole ensemble starts looking like a group of "magic users", even if they individually don't.
ion288 said:
And a few non Naruto examples.
post #4379713: Kimono-ish dress, kuji-in and a fan. Is it enough?
Yes. Mai's outfit is usually vaguely kunoichi-like and borderline for me, but the kuji-in and body pose (and visible manifestation of 'fire ninja magic' at the back) push it unambiguously towards "Definitely a kunoichi".
Speaking of, one might consider ninjutsu to be a taggable element too, similar to magic and casting spell. Though there would be some overlap then, and the word ninjutsu might get confused for more mundane forms of actual real-life ninjutsu techniques like say aikido-style throws.
ion288 said:
post #3623461: I was told this does qualify as a ninja though I dont really see it myself.
Maybe, leaning towards no. Shinobu has the classic kunoichi kimono look. With elbow gloves and thighhighs, Problem is her outfit is somewhat 'simple' (less defined lines) and her headband has a 'jokey' smiley face. So, from the front I'd say... kunoichi, just barely squeaking by. But from the side like this where I can't even see the fishnet fabric... most likely no?
ion288 said:
post #82563: Naked, and she hasnt got many ninja accessories but the image feels more ninja somehow.
Leaning towards yes.
She does feel "kunoichi", and if were to put it down on writing as to why... forehead protector + ponytail + holding a stabby weapon + body language + black and pink-purple color theme (the classic 'kunoichi' colors) + Japanese theme on background (including the youkai-like creature) all sort of add up together to give a "kunoichi" look. Despite each of these elements being very minor and circumstantial on their own.
ion288 said:
Anyone is welcome to comment. Otherwise it will just be me and @NNescio deciding what a ninja is on Danbooru.
Would like to hear other people's opinions too.
Updated by NNescio
