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BUR #40305 is pending approval.
create implication usami_(danganronpa) -> monomi_(danganronpa)
This is the same character with a different appearance. Technically, Usami is the base form which then gets corrupted into Monomi, but Monomi is the form she is in for the majority of the game, and presumably the most recognisable one.
monomi_(danganronpa) usami_(danganronpa) only has 56 posts of overlap currently, around 10% of the smallest. This suggests that people don't see them as the same character.
nonamethanks said:
monomi_(danganronpa) usami_(danganronpa) only has 56 posts of overlap currently, around 10% of the smallest. This suggests that people don't see them as the same character.
Or that they expect it's already implied, and don't bother to check. It's the same situation as midna and midna_(true), except the true form is at the start of the game for five minutes instead of the end of the game for five minutes.
Their appearance is quite distinct though. The name even changes in-game iirc. I think they should be treated as different characters. After all, the overlap happens when both Usami and Monomi are present in the same image.
Unless you want to count it as some sort of transformation… I guess it would work but ehhh.
Edit: Okay, I read the BUR the wrong way. But that means you’re trying to add the Monomi tag to every Usami post? I don’t think it makes sense. Usami wasn’t always Monomi. She has her own name and appearance. On posts like post #7822916 there’s no reason to add a Monomi tag. Not when only Usami is present.
Updated
If anything, I could maybe see monomi -> usami, but not the other way around. They are the same character with different names, but each form is drawn separately frequently enough that I think it's useful not to muddle them together. Kind of like how sailor moon and tsukino usagi don't imply each other.
kimonomiko said:
If anything, I could maybe see monomi -> usami, but not the other way around.
Usami exists for less than 30 minutes before being turned into Monomi, and she stays that way for the remaining 30-60 hours of the game. Is Usami technically her true, original form? Yes. Should we ignore the context of the entire game itself and tag her as such? No.
As I mentioned before, there is a very good reason midna_(true) implies midna rather than the other way round. They even have about the same amount of posts as Usami and Monomi - if this BUR is rejected, we'd just be picking and choosing which of these such scenarios to imply based on a whim.
They are the same character with different names, but each form is drawn separately frequently enough that I think it's useful not to muddle them together. Kind of like how sailor moon and tsukino usagi don't imply each other.
Superhero and magical girl tagging are outliers that are handled in a number of different ways depending on the media in question, and should not be looked to for inspiration when discussing alternate form implications.
If a character called Daniel Booru occasionally decided to slap paint on half his body, wear a diaper, and demand to be called "Diaper Dan", then we'd have a diaper_dan tag which would imply daniel_booru. We don't consider an alternate costume/form to be a different character just because the character's name is different; Usami and Monomi are no exception. The only difference is that Usami should imply Monomi, because as I mentioned, Monomi is objectively the "main" form, even if it's not her true form.
AngryZapdos said:
[…]
From what I’ve seen, Midna is introduced in her imp form, which is also the one that appears in other Nintendo games. Her true form is only revealed at the very end of Twilight Princess, but it’s the same entity with the same name.
Meanwhile, Danganronpa 2 starts with Usami, who then gets corrupted by Monokuma and becomes Monomi after over a hour of gameplay. Out of 30, sure. But Usami returns near the end of the game, when Monomi had already been executed. Plus, there are some official game modes in which Usami never becomes Monomi.
I don’t think Midna can be treated as a parallel. Also, look at post #9233068, post #7822916, post #4622048 and tell me how is that Monomi. Not every depiction of Usami is Monomi.
aster1a said:
I don’t think Midna can be treated as a parallel. Also, look at post #9233068, post #7822916, post #4622048 and tell me how is that Monomi. Not every depiction of Usami is Monomi.
Since you take so much issue with Midna (even though it's the exact same thing), let's also apply your argument to Edelgard from Fire Emblem. See post #7299548. Under your own logic, if they had named this version of her "Vanguard the Destroyer", then it should no longer be tagged as Edelgard because "she has her own name and appearance," which is completely absurd. Half of her might be black goo, but it's still obviously Edelgard.
Now look at post #7912977. Usami is on the left, Monomi is on the right. Yes, they have differences, but to claim they are unrecognisable is ridiculous - all that changes is her outfit and the split color. It's the same character no matter which way you slice it; there's no weird Fate bullshit where the soul of a demon took over her body or something, it's literally just her in a weird baby fetish getup. Therefore, one should be implied to the other, and because she is Monomi for 99% of the game, Usami should imply Monomi.
AngryZapdos said:
Since you take so much issue with Midna (even though it's the exact same thing), let's also apply your argument to Edelgard from Fire Emblem. See post #7299548. Under your own logic, if they had named this version of her "Vanguard the Destroyer", then it should no longer be tagged as Edelgard because "she has her own name and appearance," which is completely absurd. Half of her might be black goo, but it's still obviously Edelgard.
The issue is not Midna. And it’s best not to rely on hypotheticals. There is no “Vanguard the Destroyer”.
The issue is that the first character we see is Usami. She’s introduced as such and Monokuma later changes her. And there are game modes with a story, present in the official games, in which Usami never becomes Monomi. At all. She’s just Usami.
AngryZapdos said:
Now look at post #7912977. Usami is on the left, Monomi is on the right. Yes, they have differences, but to claim they are unrecognisable is ridiculous - all that changes is her outfit and the split color. It's the same character no matter which way you slice it; it's literally just her in a weird baby fetish getup. Therefore, one should be implied to the other, and because she is Monomi for 99% of the game, Usami should imply Monomi.
In posts featuring both Usami and Monomi, it is correct to tag them both. But the BUR would add Monomi even where only Usami is present. Why? What’s the point? Usami is her own character. I would understand if she was the transformation of Monomi, but she is not. There are hundreds of posts depicting Usami without Monomi. What about those?
aster1a said:
The issue is not Midna. And it’s best not to rely on hypotheticals. There is no “Vanguard the Destroyer”.
...In posts featuring both Usami and Monomi, it is correct to tag them both.
If you're not even going to bother reading my posts, why on earth should I be bothered to respond to yours, especially when you repeatedly bring up the exact same points I'm continually addressing? I really detest this "you're wrong because I said so" attitude.
BaiserLaVerite said:
I understand the arguments against it, but I still think there should be a way to search for both at once. Would it be better if Usami was the parent tag?
That's where the dual_persona tag comes in handy. See midna dual_persona, it's very useful for these cases.
AngryZapdos said:
As I mentioned before, there is a very good reason midna_(true) implies midna rather than the other way round. They even have about the same amount of posts as Usami and Monomi - if this BUR is rejected, we'd just be picking and choosing which of these such scenarios to imply based on a whim.
That implication is from almost exactly ten years ago in topic #11661 without really having any debate. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it would annoy me for something like this to go through with usami. For the past 12 years, monomi and usami have both been consistently tagged separately and only tagged together when both forms are present. If this BUR goes through it renders the distinction pretty pointless and makes it more tedious to search for pictures of monomi without digging through 481 posts of Just Usami, which would encompass 25% of the tag at that point. (Most users can only search two tags at once, so if you -usami, that's your whole search.)
Rather, if enough people agree with this to the point the BUR ends up being rejected, perhaps the midna implication should be revisited. Although I have no investment in doing so myself.
BaiserLaVerite said:
I understand the arguments against it, but I still think there should be a way to search for both at once. Would it be better if Usami was the parent tag?
monomi_(danganronpa) OR usami_(danganronpa) renders all posts tagged with either. Part of me wants to say that I'm inclined to agree more with Usami as the parent since monomi is always usami but usami isn't always monomi; however, monomi's postcount triples usami's so I do think monomi would still be the best choice as parent between the two.
nonamethanks said:
monomi_(danganronpa) usami_(danganronpa) only has 56 posts of overlap currently, around 10% of the smallest. This suggests that people don't see them as the same character.
+1
I would be meh on Monomi -> Usami, but I don't like Usami -> Monomi.
BUR #40953 is pending approval.
create implication monomi_(danganronpa) -> usami_(danganronpa)
Alternate order, Usami is the original form.
zetsubousensei said:
BUR #40953 is pending approval.
create implication monomi_(danganronpa) -> usami_(danganronpa)
Alternate order, Usami is the original form.
99% of the time, it makes perfect sense to imply a transformed version of a character to their original form. However, in the rare exception cases where the character's main identity is the transformed version, then the only sensible solution is to reverse the implication.
Monomi fits this trend of exceptions. She has an original form (Usami), but is immediately transformed into Monomi at the start of the game and remains this way until the very end of the game. Just like all of the other examples, she does not become a "different" character - her voice, personality, memories etc. remain the same. As such, Usami should be implied to Monomi.
