Posted under Tags
BUR #40354 has been rejected.
mass update favgroup:43051 -> low_fantasy
create implication low_fantasy -> fantasy
Noticed while tag gardening that I'm pretty sure we don't have a tag for low fantasy? Which is unfortunate because I really enjoy it.
Low fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy that can be most easily described as blending fantasy with mundane settings. This can be done in a handful of different ways but that's the main gist overall.
Updated
Given the posts, aren't these just contemporary fantasy in most cases?
Also I don't see why something like post #9046965 would need to be tagged low fantasy instead of just fantasy. Including posts like this sets too low of a bar for inclusion, because most fantasy depictions aren't going to always be some impressive action scene.
topic #23448 feels relevant here, given that we might some repeat points from it (specifically forum #240123), but I'll be honest that I wasn't aware that the split between low/high fantasy was actually non-epic/epic fantasy (as opposed to pre-20th/20th-onward), and not like the soft/hard split in sci-fi (or at least, if I was aware, I forgor).
GreyOmega said:
Given the posts, aren't these just contemporary fantasy in most cases?
Yes, most low fantasy is fantasy set in a mudane/real world setting, typically modern. Contemporary is for clothing though, so there wouldn't be another way to search for this type of fantasy.
Unless you're proposing we establish contemporary fantasy instead, but that's a slightly different concept even if it overlaps.
Also I don't see why something like post #9046965 would need to be tagged low fantasy instead of just fantasy. Including posts like this sets too low of a bar for inclusion, because most fantasy depictions aren't going to always be some impressive action scene.
The posts in the favgroup aren't a hard "this is the criteria", it's just a starting point. Specific posts can be removed if needed, obviously, that artist just draws a lot of contemporary low fantasy and that one likely just slipped through.
Low fantasy would imply fantasy, anyways, it's just that I personally really like this genre of fantasy and would appreciate if I could search for it... slice_of_life fantasy includes things that are slice of life for high fantasy, too. (And not all low fantasy art falls under slice of life)
Damian0358 said:
topic #23448 feels relevant here, given that we might some repeat points from it (specifically forum #240123), but I'll be honest that I wasn't aware that the split between low/high fantasy was actually non-epic/epic fantasy (as opposed to pre-20th/20th-onward), and not like the soft/hard split in sci-fi (or at least, if I was aware, I forgor).
I agree with that thread that more subgenre tags for fantasy would be very useful, honestly, especially since sci-fi has quite a few.
Also yeah, high/low fantasy is more about the setting - low fantasy is set on Earth (or a very close analogue) while high fantasy is set in a fictional world where Earth is non-existent or irrelevant (or characters travel from it to said fictional setting). Low fantasy is like "what if our world had fantasy creatures/magic/etc" rather than presenting a whole new world where that stuff is the norm and deeply built into the world.
Soft/hard sci-fi is about how technical the in-universe science is explained and how much it's focused on, right? I'm not big into sci-fi, lol.
Trouble_Windows said:
Soft/hard sci-fi is about how technical the in-universe science is explained and how much it's focused on, right? I'm not big into sci-fi, lol.
That is, indeed, correct. Hard science fiction puts a lot more effort into making their science sound plausible than soft science fiction. I don't think the distinction is really feasible to make in artwork tho, but I'm not big enough into science-fiction to be the judge of that.
Hard agree on more fantasy tags. I personally would love a tag for sci-fi fantasy or a tag for the reverse scenario of contemporary (with characters in a modern setting being placed into a fantasy setting). I also think contemporary fantasy would be the better tag name for the concept being discussed here, as that feels like a more accurate description for its intended scope.
Trouble_Windows said:
I agree with that thread that more subgenre tags for fantasy would be very useful, honestly, especially since sci-fi has quite a few.
Yeah, but at the same time it provides an opposition to what you've suggested, in the sense that a high fantasy character depicted in contemporary attire ends up looking low fantasy (ex. post #7074752). You can't precisely distinguish setting in art and the artist can choose to depict the world however you want. A clothing shop in a high fantasy setting that's brought up to modern day would look functionally indisguishable from a low fantasy setting (since I'm lumping urban fantasy in here due to, as you yourself point out, low fantasy, ala fairy tales and folklore, take place in our world, as oppose to Tolkienesque works and sword and shield which is what people think of when talking high fantasy - reminding myself of these two videos right now).
Primarily, I think, the issue might be that low fantasy might be too broad of a tag. Funny thing to say given that fantasy was accused of that, but what I mean is that it's lumping together various kinds of low fantasy together that might be better served having their own individual tags. Like, looking at your sampler above, you have urban fantasy (ex. Maxine Vee, Simz) paired together with Pokemon and Digimon, Dragon Ball, Minecraft YouTube, and Touhou among a bunch of Japanese urban fantasy art. Even though you'd be technically right with your labeling here, no one considers Pokemon and Digimon fantasy because they're ultimately just "a world just like ours, but with a twist to it," such a mundane notion to be comparable to fairy tales (which people will debate on whether it is actually fantasy or not). Dragon Ball, per its inspiration, is fantasy, but Toriyama's functionally turned it into science fantasy, straddling the lines between fantasy and soft sci-fi. Touhou and some of the other Japanese art like post #8270685 reflect Japanese attitudes towards the relationship between the real and the supernatural, ala youkai and spirits just being a thing people contend with on the daily as part of nature (which is why traditionally those stories are in rural settings), which is a different attitude from Western low fantasy where the supernatural is framed as something outside of this world or reality (hence why you see fae realms), even in some urban fantasy settings ala Fables (Bill Willingham).
Also yeah, high/low fantasy is more about the setting - low fantasy is set on Earth (or a very close analogue) while high fantasy is set in a fictional world where Earth is non-existent or irrelevant (or characters travel from it to said fictional setting). Low fantasy is like "what if our world had fantasy creatures/magic/etc" rather than presenting a whole new world where that stuff is the norm and deeply built into the world.
Soft/hard sci-fi is about how technical the in-universe science is explained and how much it's focused on, right? I'm not big into sci-fi, lol.
Technically speaking, the distinction between the two is that hard sci-fi and soft sci-fi are based on the sciences (hard sciences like math and physics, vs. soft sciences like sociology and history) and each approach impacts how they explore the medium, but I feel like in casual conversation hard sci-fi is framed as more focused on nitty-gritty detail and scientific accuracy, while soft sci-fi feels free to employ what is essentially fantasy or rule of cool but reframed from a scientific perspective (so think Interstellar vs. Star Wars). There is a sliding scale from one to the other, but that's the long and short of it.
Knowledge_Seeker said:
I also think contemporary fantasy would be the better tag name for the concept being discussed here, as that feels like a more accurate description for its intended scope.
Given what I mentioned above just now, that could actually work better, but given how contemporary is defined for clothes, this does feel like calling urban fantasy by another name (especially when compared with something like contemporary traditional clothes, which is not for traditional clothes as used today, but for adapted traditional clothes for a contemporary/modern setting). Rural settings can still be incredibly contemporary, thinking of something like the Son Family Home (ex. post #7823755) in Dragon Ball or something like post #4145910, but that's not what you typically imagine when 'contemporary' comes to mind - urban settings are what people imagine first and foremost.
The bulk update request #40354 (forum #348784) has been rejected by @Trouble_Windows.
BTW I will reply in detail in a bit but I understand and mostly agree with your points and I think I'm gonna just rework this thread into a place to workshop more granularity for the fantasy subgenres, rather than just leaving that BUR up.
Low fantasy was just what my mind jumped to first, though I think I was mostly thinking of contemporary fantasy specifically.
Okay, just finished eating my lunch so here we go:
Damian0358 said:
Yeah, but at the same time it provides an opposition to what you've suggested, in the sense that a high fantasy character depicted in contemporary attire ends up looking low fantasy (ex. post #7074752). You can't precisely distinguish setting in art and the artist can choose to depict the world however you want. A clothing shop in a high fantasy setting that's brought up to modern day would look functionally indisguishable from a low fantasy setting (since I'm lumping urban fantasy in here due to, as you yourself point out, low fantasy, ala fairy tales and folklore, take place in our world, as oppose to Tolkienesque works and sword and shield which is what people think of when talking high fantasy - reminding myself of these two videos right now).
This isn't something that occurred to me but it's 100% true now that you mention it. Interior design can be deceiving in that regard, and since this is fiction people can mash whatever they want together. I'm reminded of the debates about whether Harry Potter classifies as low fantasy because it takes place on Earth, or if it's high fantasy because it takes place in a hidden part of Earth, and whether how closely the Wizarding World reflects ours or not matters, and how much, etc.
Primarily, I think, the issue might be that low fantasy might be too broad of a tag. Funny thing to say given that fantasy was accused of that, but what I mean is that it's lumping together various kinds of low fantasy together that might be better served having their own individual tags. Like, looking at your sampler above, you have urban fantasy (ex. Maxine Vee, Simz) paired together with Pokemon and Digimon, Dragon Ball, Minecraft YouTube, and Touhou among a bunch of Japanese urban fantasy art. Even though you'd be technically right with your labeling here, no one considers Pokemon and Digimon fantasy because they're ultimately just "a world just like ours, but with a twist to it," such a mundane notion to be comparable to fairy tales (which people will debate on whether it is actually fantasy or not).
Low fantasy was, as I mentioned, just what came to my mind first, but I agree with you on its broadness being an issue. I probably should have realized that while I was collecting images for that favgroup and kept changing my mind on which ones belonged, lol - which is why I'm really really glad that I proposed a BUR here rather than just making the tag! I definitely think more specific tags for concepts like contemporary fantasy is a better idea, as it skips the "is this high or low fantasy" thing, ambiguity re: interior design, and other issues, and also limits the scope to a more specific group of visual signifiers. (Hopefully that wording makes sense?)
Given what I mentioned above just now, that could actually work better, but given how contemporary is defined for clothes, this does feel like calling urban fantasy by another name (especially when compared with something like contemporary traditional clothes, which is not for traditional clothes as used today, but for adapted traditional clothes for a contemporary/modern setting). Rural settings can still be incredibly contemporary, thinking of something like the Son Family Home (ex. post #7823755) in Dragon Ball or something like post #4145910, but that's not what you typically imagine when 'contemporary' comes to mind - urban settings are what people imagine first and foremost.
Yeah, this is definitely a potential issue. A proper wiki might help, but it's hard to say how much. I'm not opposed to urban fantasy specifically, either.
Trouble_Windows said:
Low fantasy was, as I mentioned, just what came to my mind first, but I agree with you on its broadness being an issue. I probably should have realized that while I was collecting images for that favgroup and kept changing my mind on which ones belonged, lol - which is why I'm really really glad that I proposed a BUR here rather than just making the tag! I definitely think more specific tags for concepts like contemporary fantasy is a better idea, as it skips the "is this high or low fantasy" thing, ambiguity re: interior design, and other issues, and also limits the scope to a more specific group of visual signifiers. (Hopefully that wording makes sense?)
Yeah, this is definitely a potential issue. A proper wiki might help, but it's hard to say how much. I'm not opposed to urban fantasy specifically, either.
Yeah, that wording makes complete sense. The question now becomes whether or not we want to go with contemporary fantasy or with urban fantasy as names. The former emphasizes the modernity of the setting and avoids explicitly excluding rural settings, but then you'd have to find rural examples of contemporary fantasy to give as examples in the wiki et al, while the latter means you can more narrowly focus on urban modernity, since rurality can often be more ambiguous (post #715223 is a post in a rural setting with youkai depicted, but it feels like it could be pre-20th century, so it's not contemporary - that ambiguity makes stories set in rural settings more timeless, which is ironically not what we want here).
Knowledge_Seeker said:
Hard agree on more fantasy tags. I personally would love... a tag for the reverse scenario of contemporary (with characters in a modern setting being placed into a fantasy setting).
You've called for a tag like this before in topic #29319 (and I may as well namedrop the last time the tag was mentioned in forum #330664), but I still haven't thought of what a corresponding term could be. Contemporary, and its corresponding partner in anachronism, are as valid as they are because they're moreso based in time than genre. Contemporary focuses on the now and current, while anarchronism focuses on the disconnect of things in time. One can argue about how fantasy, as time has gone on, has focused in on preserving past aesthetics, while sci-fi obviously focuses on aesthetics to come, though for neither is that wholly the case (since both can be contemporary), so 'pastism' and 'futurism', following anachronism's naming scheme, might not work. Medieval, Renaissance, Victorian, and other period-based tags, while usable for fantastical settings, are based concretely in time still and don't allow for a broader use like you'd want for reverse contemporary.
Really, the best I can think of is, and I'm not joking here, noncontemporary. Given the flexibility of what 'fantasy' can mean in terms of time-inspiration, just going "yeah this isn't contemporary" as a tag is really the best one can go with. The only issue it has is that it is ambiguous on whether it means noncontemporary in a past sense, or noncontemporary in a future sense, but at that point we'd have to look at antonyms to futuristic as if we're trying to write an essay and avoid repeating a given word too many times by employing synonyms.
Damian0358 said:
Really, the best I can think of is, and I'm not joking here, noncontemporary. Given the flexibility of what 'fantasy' can mean in terms of time-inspiration, just going "yeah this isn't contemporary" as a tag is really the best one can go with. The only issue it has is that it is ambiguous on whether it means noncontemporary in a past sense, or noncontemporary in a future sense, but at that point we'd have to look at antonyms to futuristic as if we're trying to write an essay and avoid repeating a given word too many times by employing synonyms.
I think clarifying noncontemporary's definition in the Danbooru sense on the wiki page should suffice to avoid confusion, since we already have a futuristic -> science fiction alias in place.
Ylimegirl said:
I think clarifying noncontemporary's definition in the Danbooru sense on the wiki page should suffice to avoid confusion, since we already have a futuristic -> science fiction alias in place.
Maybe. So at that point the issue would arise from just making it searchable, which then goes back to looking at antonyms for potential aliases.
Damian0358 said:
You've called for a tag like this before in topic #29319 (and I may as well namedrop the last time the tag was mentioned in forum #330664), but I still haven't thought of what a corresponding term could be. Contemporary, and its corresponding partner in anachronism, are as valid as they are because they're moreso based in time than genre. Contemporary focuses on the now and current, while anarchronism focuses on the disconnect of things in time. One can argue about how fantasy, as time has gone on, has focused in on preserving past aesthetics, while sci-fi obviously focuses on aesthetics to come, though for neither is that wholly the case (since both can be contemporary), so 'pastism' and 'futurism', following anachronism's naming scheme, might not work. Medieval, Renaissance, Victorian, and other period-based tags, while usable for fantastical settings, are based concretely in time still and don't allow for a broader use like you'd want for reverse contemporary.
Really, the best I can think of is, and I'm not joking here, noncontemporary. Given the flexibility of what 'fantasy' can mean in terms of time-inspiration, just going "yeah this isn't contemporary" as a tag is really the best one can go with. The only issue it has is that it is ambiguous on whether it means noncontemporary in a past sense, or noncontemporary in a future sense, but at that point we'd have to look at antonyms to futuristic as if we're trying to write an essay and avoid repeating a given word too many times by employing synonyms.
Indeed, not the first time I brought this idea up. In fact, were I not on my phone at the time, I would've gone to fetch when I brought that up last lol.
Unfortunately, I'm just as stuck on the name as last time. Your point about the fantasy tags is something I too have observed, which is what makes the concept harder to name, not to mention more anachronistic fantasy aesthetics like the one that set off this discussion. Noncontemporary is probably as good as we're gonna get since I've yet to figure out anything better. Still not a big fan of the name tho.
Man, where do I even start with fantasy...? There's a whole lot of concepts tied to fantasy, but I hope this thread will end up helping sort some of them out. I think urban fantasy is a must, for starter. Not sure what to do about the sorts of high fantasy things I believe the tag was intended to before.
