Reverse Trap -> Bifauxnen

BUR #40487 has been rejected.

create alias reverse_trap -> bifauxnen

Otoko no Ko's tag name was aliased a while back for self-explanatory reasons. The inverse has stuck with its old name, which is obviously less of an issue because it isn't a slur the way Otoko no Ko's old tagname was. However I still think it's not great to continue having.

New proposed tagname blatantly stolen from TVTropes. I like it because it's punny.

Potentially related: topic #11910

Also looks like someone created a wiki for bifauxnen abt a year ago that got deleted.

I'll be honest, I always found the current tag name for this one pretty icky due to said slur connotations, even if it's not to the level that otoko no ko's was. "Bifauxen" get the same concept across and is also catchy. I like it a lot more than the current name already.

The issue raised back in topic #11910 remains. Bifauxnen would make me think it's a reverse bishounen tag, not a reverse otoko no ko tag, especially since the latter already describes bishounen as "boys with both masculine and feminine beauty traits" as opposed to just feminine beauty traits, and Bifauxnen doesn't get across that this is for girls with masculine beauty traits.

Of course, my point might prove less important if the tag is already dominated by gals who'd be better described as bifauxnen than dansou no reijin, and a rename in that case would just be changing the tag name to reflect actual use, but I'm not too familiar with the tag to comment on that.

I've never heard of Bifauxnen and wouldn't have been able to glean it's usage if you weren't trying to alias reverse_trap to it. If you were going to change the tag name just go with Reverse_oto_no_ko, that being said I don't see the term as a slur so I think it's harmless as it is.

From what I know of the term, and admittedly I could be wrong. All bifauxnen are reverse traps but not all reverse traps are bifauxnen. Characters like rika (pokemon) fit but dororo (character) or edward wong hau pepelu tivrusky iv (As an aside are there really no aliases for this tag?) wouldn't. I've always known of bifauxnen as being a character type typified by characters such as oscar francois de jarjayes. That sort of androgynous beauty type instead of just any girl that looks like a boy.

edit:

zetsubousensei said:

I've never heard of Bifauxnen and wouldn't have been able to glean it's usage if you weren't trying to alias reverse_trap to it. If you were going to change the tag name just go with Reverse_oto_no_ko, that being said I don't see the term as a slur so I think it's harmless as it is.

I think either the previously proposed "onna no ko" or "reverse otoko no ko" are the best choices as of now.

zetsubousensei said:

I've never heard of Bifauxnen and wouldn't have been able to glean it's usage if you weren't trying to alias reverse_trap to it. If you were going to change the tag name just go with Reverse_oto_no_ko, that being said I don't see the term as a slur so I think it's harmless as it is.

I don't know if you're speaking from the perspective of a transgender person or not, but personally, as someone not in that group, I don't believe I am in a position to say whether or not the term is harmful to them. However, I do believe that given the term's controversy, it would be more pragmatic to alias it than to leave it alone, but the tag name needs to be able to stand on its own. I think your suggestion of reverse otoko no ko is the best one yet as it can easily be linked to the concept using a term that should be more popularized thanks to a decade of use (I heard anime subs have even started using it).

Also, it's nice having symmetrical tags.

BUR #40489 is pending approval.

create alias reverse_trap -> reverse_otoko_no_ko

I am not, though I was mistaken for a boy when I was a child lol. I'm just saying that it's not flung around like a slur and as someone who does enjoy this style of character I haven't seen drama related to the term like the male counterpart "trap" spawned.

I think if it's going to be changed the tag name needs to be obvious at a glance and Bifauxen isn't.

zetsubousensei said:

BUR #40489 is pending approval.

create alias reverse_trap -> reverse_otoko_no_ko

I am not, though I was mistaken for a boy when I was a child lol. I'm just saying that it's not flung around like a slur and as someone who does enjoy this style of character I haven't seen drama related to the term like the male counterpart "trap" spawned.

I think if it's going to be changed the tag name needs to be obvious at a glance which Bifauxen isn't.

I mean, "reverse trap" still has the word "trap" in it, so I'd imagine those upset with the latter would be equally as upset with the former even if it didn't pop up as often in the discourse.

More importantly, did you mean to type "reverse oto no ko" instead of "reverse otoko no ko? I'm inclined to believe it's a typo, but since you did it twice now, I just want to make sure.

Blank_User said:

I mean, "reverse trap" still has the word "trap" in it, so I'd imagine those upset with the latter would be equally as upset with the former even if it didn't pop up as often in the discourse.

More importantly, did you mean to type "reverse oto no ko" instead of "reverse otoko no ko? I'm inclined to believe it's a typo, but since you did it twice now, I just want to make sure.

Double typo, thanks for catching! BUR fixed.

BUR #40490 is pending approval.

create alias reverse_trap -> onna_no_ko

I understand the flaws people see with bifauxnen (though it is a tag that could probably be populated), but reverse otoko no ko is soooo clunky. I'll also submit one for the untypoed version proposed 9 years ago to see if anyone feels differently now.

BUR #40491 has been rejected.

create alias reverse_trap -> dansou_no_reijin

As above. Mostly I just want the main tag name to not be reverse trap and was surprised it hadn't been attempted by anyone else yet.

I'll be honest, "Bifauxen" is the term I immediately think of with this tag. But since it does have the issues above, admittedly, I'm willing to settle for one of the alternatives here. I personally am in favor of "onna no ko" due to the symmetry reason, and due to being less clunky than "reverse otoko no ko". As long as the tag name gets changed at all, I'll be satisfied tho.

Ylimegirl said:
I like it because it's punny.

Well, so is the word "trap" but now it's suddenly a "slur".

The replacement name should neither imply 'bishounen-ness' nor crossdressing, and should either be something commonly used or something clearly descriptive.

I don't think any of these currently posted BURs fulfill those criteria.

Ultexia said:

Well, so is the word "trap" but now it's suddenly a "slur".

What's the pun in that word? Please explain it to me because I'm not getting it.

I'll explain the pun in mine: "faux" sounds similar to "shou" the x is silent because French is a nonsense language and means "fake", so its a way of saying "false bishounen", with the false part being that the character is an androgynous girl instead of an androgynous boy.

So I'll ask again: what exactly was the "pun" in the original tag name for Otoko no Ko that somehow negates it being a derogatory slur for transfem people in real life?

Can we avoid turning this into an argument or debate?

I don't like dansou_no_reijin since when I look it up I see stuff like Princess Knight and Utena. Those characters are in traditionally male roles but are not indistinguishable from men.

Onna no ko is better though I still like reverse_otoko_no_ko best.

Ylimegirl said:

BUR #40491 has been rejected.

create alias reverse_trap -> dansou_no_reijin

As above. Mostly I just want the main tag name to not be reverse trap and was surprised it hadn't been attempted by anyone else yet.

I did suggest onna no ko as an alternative in a previous topic after NNT brought up the "trap" debate in forum #276591, but didn't make a BUR as I thought it would likely not go anywhere. He's consistently been in the "trap is not a slur" camp, and while I don't think he'll reject these BURs outright, they'll need overwhelming support to have any chance of getting through.

While NNT does bring up a good point about the risk of users opening the tag because they don't know what it is, otoko no ko has been around long enough that an alias to reverse otoko no ko shouldn't cause any major problems, which is why it's my current number one pick, with onna no ko being a close second. The other terms seem like they'd obscure the subject matter too much and lead to the problem NNT described.

Ylimegirl said:

So I'll ask again: what exactly was the "pun" in the original tag name for Otoko no Ko that somehow negates it being a derogatory slur for transfem people in real life?

The only thing I can think of that would make it a pun is the Admiral Ackbar "It's a trap!" meme from Star Wars, but I think that came after the word was already being used for that. Not that it really matters in the end.

Ylimegirl said:
What's the pun in that word?

It always held the connotation that a character could be presented as being so convincingly feminine that the audience got "trapped" into thinking it was a girl while it was "actually" a boy, often without any evidence. It's not perfect but preferable to foreign, lengthy, and easily mistyped terms like otoko no ko which is only used here on Danbooru and not elsewhere, only further propagating the catchier and more familiar term "trap" alongside "femboy".
Is it offensive to use 1boy and 1girl for elderly people? Isn't the word pussy also a "slur"? Maybe, but it's the common jargon and not meant to offend. The point of language is communication. Changing familiar expressions to obtuse foreign ones isn't a step in the right direction.
That being said, I did not intend to start a debate and was merely alluding to the fact that "bifauxnen" or "false man" could be easily misinterpreted as equally offensive if not even more so.

As a trans man myself I don't find "reverse trap" to be a slur towards me so much as I just find it icky for containing "trap" given the history of that word's use against trans women.

(On a tangentially related note, re: the other thread linked - I'm also not bothered by cuntboy at all, personally...)

That aside: I like onna no ko, it plays off the same wordplay as otoko no ko. I also agree that bifauxnen is more specific of a concept.