Nuke jacket over dress

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gunupmyskirt

BUR #48760 has been rejected.

nuke jacket_over_dress
deprecate jacket_over_dress

This tag feels like a padding tag inclusion to the jacket_over_* tag format. Dresses aren't articles of clothing where a jacket being worn with them is notable unlike with hoodies, swimsuits, or even kimono. There's almost 50k posts of characters wearing jackets over dresses and that's just counting the solo posts. It is a useless tag, but I can understand what school of thought led to it's creation, so it should be deprecated to prevent it from being repopulated.

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gunupmyskirt People of the Book wispydreamer Unbreakable Noelle Holiday magcolo Knowledge Seeker zetsubousensei Freshblink TenaciousTurtleDucks CommentaryRequest NiceLittleDan VR-Man WRS trapster77 buehbueh Kawakijin NeptuneStarPrime Alixiron ANON TOKYO Wellness Bringer01
trapster77

gunupmyskirt said:

BUR #48760 has been rejected.

nuke jacket_over_dress
deprecate jacket_over_dress

This tag feels like a padding tag inclusion to the jacket_over_* tag format. Dresses aren't articles of clothing where a jacket being worn with them is notable unlike with hoodies, swimsuits, or even kimono. There's almost 50k posts of characters wearing jackets over dresses and that's just counting the solo posts. It is a useless tag, but I can understand what school of thought led to it's creation, so it should be deprecated to prevent it from being repopulated.

i checked the counts...

jacket hoodie solo 11159
jacket_over_hoodie 1485
jacket dress solo 42998
jacket_over_swimsuit 1925
jacket swimsuit solo 42907

there are as many jacket_over_swimsuit posts as there would be jacket_over_hoodie posts. why is one "padding" and the other not padding?

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gunupmyskirt

trapster77 said:
there are as many jacket_over_swimsuit posts as there would be jacket_over_hoodie posts. why is one "padding" and the other not padding?

I assume you meant as many jacket over swimsuit posts as jacket over dress, and sure, you're right. I actually think something needs to be done about jacket over swimsuit, too. It's a messy tag that doesn't even care if the character is even actually wearing a jacket or not, so it could stand to be gardened or dealt with in some other way.

I think tags like this become padding if what they are referring to is something that is both extremely common and not something that would be searched for. Disregarding the people actively attempting to populate it right now because of this BUR, jacket over dress had only 60 posts when I first put this BUR out and population efforts that I had seen before making it all appeared to be quickly given up on.

I'm fine being wrong and if this is a tag that you think people would actively search for, that's fine, but it is a gargantuan population effort that must be undertaken.

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gunupmyskirt

Actually, I just realized that my main gripe with this tag is a gripe that I have with dress tagging in general.

The majority of the posts that were the first ones that used jacket over dress were of Hiyajou Maho (despite how she is wearing a cardigan and not a jacket), and a good chunk of these posts didn't feature her lower half at all. Even though I'm personally under the impression that you should still tag what you see and not what you know, even in regards to a character's costume, I don't care how people tag dress. They're gonna tag dresses even if it's a portrait, even if it's impossible to tell that character is wearing a dress without already knowing in your mind that the character is wearing a dress in their full costume, I don't care.

What bothers me so much about this tag just seeing how it was created is that, if it is allowed to exist, it is going to be another tag that is populated with people tagging what they know and not what they see. Contrast that with tags like jacket over swimsuit and jacket over hoodie where people do not tag those when it is not apparent that the character is wearing a hoodie or that the character is wearing a swimsuit. That's what my gripe is with this tag. To me, that uncertainty is what makes it padding.

Does that make any sense?

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trapster77

gunupmyskirt said:

Actually, I just realized that my main gripe with this tag is a gripe that I have with dress tagging in general.

The majority of the posts that were the first ones that used jacket over dress were of Hiyajou Maho (despite how she is wearing a cardigan and not a jacket), and a good chunk of these posts didn't feature her lower half at all. Even though I'm personally under the impression that you should still tag what you see and not what you know, even in regards to a character's costume, I don't care how people tag dress. They're gonna tag dresses even if it's a portrait, even if it's impossible to tell that character is wearing a dress without already knowing in your mind that the character is wearing a dress in their full costume, I don't care.

What bothers me so much about this tag just seeing how it was created is that, if it is allowed to exist, it is going to be another tag that is populated with people tagging what they know and not what they see. Contrast that with tags like jacket over swimsuit and jacket over hoodie where people do not tag those when it is not apparent that the character is wearing a hoodie or that the character is wearing a swimsuit. That's what my gripe is with this tag. To me, that uncertainty is what makes it padding.

Does that make any sense?

i'm sure if there was someone wearing a cardigan over a swimsuit and it were open someone would mistag it. jacket, cardigan, coat, hoodie, sweater, suit and even shirt can all just look like the same thing just because they have long sleeves specially when they aren't open in the front

honestly it always feels like the options are...

1) have very specific tags like jacket_over_swimsuit, coat_over_swimsuit, hoodie_over_swimsuit... then they all get nuked later because they're too specific
2) have vague a tag that is wrong in 50% of the cases... it gets deprecated later because nobody gardened it
3) create a generic tag like worn_over_swimsuit to cover all uses... it ends up covering more than you intended because of what the name sounds like and nobody uses it because of 2 tag search limit, then it gets deprecated later because it is too ample and if people used the tag right it would be like 100k posts that need to be tagged with it

i don't know what the right answer is

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AngryZapdos

BUR #49286 has been rejected.

nuke jacket_over_swimsuit
deprecate jacket_over_swimsuit

trapster77 said:

honestly it always feels like the options are...

1) have very specific tags like jacket_over_swimsuit, coat_over_swimsuit, hoodie_over_swimsuit... then they all get nuked later because they're too specific
2) have vague a tag that is wrong in 50% of the cases... it gets deprecated later because nobody gardened it
3) create a generic tag like worn_over_swimsuit to cover all uses... it ends up covering more than you intended because of what the name sounds like and nobody uses it because of 2 tag search limit, then it gets deprecated later because it is too ample and if people used the tag right it would be like 100k posts that need to be tagged with it

i don't know what the right answer is

When the question of "do we need this tag?" pops up, what's actually being asked is "can I already search for these posts?".

Look through the jacket swimsuit search. The vast majority of these posts already feature a jacket over a swimsuit. This means that jacket_over_swimsuit is a tandem tag, ie. it offers no more utility than a simple two-tag search and is nothing more than padding. As such, I'm making this BUR (with a nuke instead of a mass update, because it already has implications).

As for jacket_over_hoodie, because users add hoodie to basically any garment with a hood (including jackets), it's difficult to find with just the hoodie jacket search. It's a bandaid solution, but it's a working one. The real solution here is to fix hoodie, but I already tried that years ago to no avail. I'd just leave it alone.

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AngryZapdos CommentaryRequest zetsubousensei Knowledge Seeker NeptuneStarPrime
Unbreakable

AngryZapdos said:

BUR #49286 has been rejected.

nuke jacket_over_swimsuit
deprecate jacket_over_swimsuit

When the question of "do we need this tag?" pops up, what's actually being asked is "can I already search for these posts?".

Look through the jacket swimsuit search. The vast majority of these posts already feature a jacket over a swimsuit. This means that jacket_over_swimsuit is a tandem tag, ie. it offers no more utility than a simple two-tag search and is nothing more than padding. As such, I'm making this BUR (with a nuke instead of a mass update, because it already has implications).

As for jacket_over_hoodie, because users add hoodie to basically any garment with a hood (including jackets), it's difficult to find with just the hoodie jacket search. It's a bandaid solution, but it's a working one. The real solution here is to fix hoodie, but I already tried that years ago to no avail. I'd just leave it alone.

Should these posts be updated with swimsuit under clothes along with the nuke?

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ANON TOKYO

gunupmyskirt said:

Actually, I just realized that my main gripe with this tag is a gripe that I have with dress tagging in general.

The majority of the posts that were the first ones that used jacket over dress were of Hiyajou Maho (despite how she is wearing a cardigan and not a jacket), and a good chunk of these posts didn't feature her lower half at all. Even though I'm personally under the impression that you should still tag what you see and not what you know, even in regards to a character's costume, I don't care how people tag dress. They're gonna tag dresses even if it's a portrait, even if it's impossible to tell that character is wearing a dress without already knowing in your mind that the character is wearing a dress in their full costume, I don't care.

Tbh this sort of thing is where it's important to remember that "tag what you see not what you know" is the guideline and not an absolute rule. A dress doesn't suddenly become a shirt in a portrait/upper body view if you know the full outfit is a dress. Many posts or tags rely on at least a little bit of knowledge (gender tags are another example), so as long as the assumptions being made are reasonable it's fine.

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