why is there a Minorities pool

Billmaster said:

why is there a Minorities pool

Ask the easily offended people.
Yeah, I'm gonna be reported and downvoted but that's the truth: Danbooru has fallen prey to 'those' people.

Darker skinned people are never 'minorities'. They outnumber fair skinned people by more than thrice the population; 'minority' in art also doesn't fly since lately most shows, films and whatsoever has 'forced' inclusivity and historacial blackwashing.

The pool even has this entry as wiki: "Unless expressed by the content of the image or by the artist themself, characters with dark or tan skin don't necessarily fall into this pool."

Rathurue said:

The pool even has this entry as wiki: "Unless expressed by the content of the image or by the artist themself, characters with dark or tan skin don't necessarily fall into this pool."

"Depiction of Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American would belong to this pool"
Here's the sentence preceding the one you quoted that you conveniently forgot to include. Pullum is middle eastern so she fits the pool.

If you think the pool is unnecessary, bring it up in the forums instead of complaining about it in the comments .

TheGreatDeer said:

"Depiction of Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American would belong to this pool"
Here's the sentence preceding the one you quoted that you conveniently forgot to include. Pullum is middle eastern so she fits the pool.

If you think the pool is unnecessary, bring it up in the forums instead of complaining about it in the comments .

The whole thing makes up for a whole.

"Characters who are human, (part of) the main focus, and have an ethnic background other than European (American, Eastern and Western) or East Asian (Japan, Korea, China)."

Depiction of Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American would belong to this pool also. Unless expressed by the content of the image or by the artist themself, characters with dark or tan skin don't necessarily fall into this pool."

Does anything in that picture gives a message or give sense about her being a minority? Compare that with this image which clearly depicts Rin as a 'minority' in that picture.

Pictures does not belong to Minority pool unless it is explicitly said by the artist or expressed by the content of the image. That's what the wiki said.

If that's the case then all picture of Barrett doesn't belong there since he's just black. FFVII world Gaia doesn't have 'Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American' ethnicity. These rendition of raceswapped Samus also doesn't belong there for the same reason. If one were to filter that pool from wrong entries (basically images that added to the pool only because it depicts character with racial traits of those like African/American-African characters) the whole pool would've shrunk into 2-3 pages only, not worth of even consisting as a pool, and the existence of the pool itself allowed for people to put wrong things into the pool.

The pool aren't worth keeping. The only reason why it exist is already stated in my post above, and people in the forums won't hear anything about that. Heck, before it got renamed as 'Minority' the pool used to be called 'People of Color'. I wonder why it is only got renamed quite recently (2023-06-24), huh?

Rathurue said:

The pool aren't worth keeping. The only reason why it exist is already stated in my post above, and people in the forums won't hear anything about that.

I'll repeat what was already said: If you don't like the pool, bring it up in the forums. If you don't think that'll matter, then stop complaining about it in the comments.

And for the record, the pool exists because, as far as art is concerned, especially art from the Eastern hemisphere where the majority of Danbooru's art comes from, characters from the listed nationalities and ethnicities are the minority, and impossible to easily search for. The pool has existed for as long as the site has, "offended people" have nothing to do with its creation or continued existence.

Also, 2 or 3 pages is fine for a pool. Pools don't have a minimum size to deserve to exist, just like tags. If it serves a difficult or impossible to replicate purpose, then it gets to exist. If your problem is that the pool is being polluted bring it up in the forums so that maybe a solution can be discussed.

I get the impression that the pool's usefulness isn't really what you care about, though.

Heck, before it got renamed as 'Minority' the pool used to be called 'People of Color'. I wonder why it is only got renamed quite recently (2023-06-24), huh?

This addition really doesn't help your case. Did you actually look through the history? No, of course you didn't, you just checked the first two pages and ran with this ignorance because it makes your argument look better.

It has literally always been called "Minorities" and was only renamed to "People of Color/Minorities" by a random Member level user this year before being changed back two months later.

blindVigil said:

I'll repeat what was already said: If you don't like the pool, bring it up in the forums. If you don't think that'll matter, then stop complaining about it in the comments.

And for the record, the pool exists because, as far as art is concerned, especially art from the Eastern hemisphere where the majority of Danbooru's art comes from, characters from the listed nationalities and ethnicities are the minority, and impossible to easily search for. The pool has existed for as long as the site has, "offended people" have nothing to do with its creation or continued existence.

Also, 2 or 3 pages is fine for a pool. Pools don't have a minimum size to deserve to exist, just like tags. If it serves a difficult or impossible to replicate purpose, then it gets to exist. If your problem is that the pool is being polluted bring it up in the forums so that maybe a solution can be discussed.

I get the impression that the pool's usefulness isn't really what you care about, though.

The pool was created by Iceburger and has underwent complete restructuring several times, with only several of the original content remaining thanks to people who added things unrelated to the pool itself despite the wiki. It is as useful as tissue wrapper: only exist to contain things that's going to be discarded afterwards. I only mention the pool doesn't worth existing because the changes it underwent name change from People of Color to Minorities, which by itself implies a certain political thing. Danbooru doesn't NEED a 'minority' category, because art contained in Danbooru doesn't reflect the amount of art there is in the entirety of the internet; making a category explicitly to category these art as minority implies special care enacted to them.

Rathurue said:

The pool was created by Iceburger and has underwent complete restructuring several times, with only several of the original content remaining thanks to people who added things unrelated to the pool itself despite the wiki. It is as useful as tissue wrapper: only exist to contain things that's going to be discarded afterwards. I only mention the pool doesn't worth existing because the changes it underwent name change from People of Color to Minorities, which by itself implies a certain political thing. Danbooru doesn't NEED a 'minority' category, because art contained in Danbooru doesn't reflect the amount of art there is in the entirety of the internet; making a category explicitly to category these art as minority implies special care enacted to them.

What Danbooru needs is ways to find images. Unless you want to propose a way to find these images that doesn't require a 6+ tag search, assuming relevant tags even exist, then how about you stop spreading willful ignorance to push whatever asinine agenda you have here.

I wrote a long post but vigil already said most of my point so I'm going say a few things.

If you think there are images that doesn't fit the pool, you are more than welcome to garden the pool. This is a user driven site. it has been this way a long time.

And for the nth time , if you have issues with tags or pools, bring it up in the forums. Hell bring it up on Discord if you feel that strongly about it.

blindVigil said:

What Danbooru needs is ways to find images. Unless you want to propose a way to find these images that doesn't require a 6+ tag search, assuming relevant tags even exist, then how about you stop spreading willful ignorance to push whatever asinine agenda you have here.

Did you forget that we can always make 'minority' a tag instead of a pool?

TheGreatDeer said:

I wrote a long post but vigil already said most of my point so I'm going say a few things.

If you think there are images that doesn't fit the pool, you are more than welcome to garden the pool. This is a user driven site. it has been this way a long time.

And for the nth time , if you have issues with tags or pools, bring it up in the forums. Hell bring it up on Discord if you feel that strongly about it.

Already posted in the forum. You guys are welcomed to roast me there.

Just an update on the claim of "restructuring", I actually went through the pool's entire history. I have no idea what iceburger was doing with the pool when they created it, they seemed to just arbitrarily remove large numbers of posts periodically. However, every single case of mass removal was almost entirely undone. Almost every image that has been in this pool at some point is still in this pool as of today. I see no evidence that the pool has ever been restructured.

I have no idea why a pool having posts removed from it would classify it as useless, but that's not even a relevant concern here. Almost nothing that's been added to the pool has been permanently removed from it.

blindVigil said:

Just an update on the claim of "restructuring", I actually went through the pool's entire history. I have no idea what iceburger was doing with the pool when they created it, they seemed to just arbitrarily remove large numbers of posts periodically. However, every single case of mass removal was almost entirely undone. Almost every image that has been in this pool at some point is still in this pool as of today. I see no evidence that the pool has ever been restructured.

I have no idea why a pool having posts removed from it would classify it as useless, but that's not even a relevant concern here. Almost nothing that's been added to the pool has been permanently removed from it.

That's the point: why even remove posts to add them later? If you're going to restructure the pool based on what the wiki said it's better to just rebuilt it from zero AKA deletion or renaming after removing all population that doesn't fit with the category. But instead people keep readding things that clearly doesn't fit into the pool.

Rathurue said:

Almost nothing? Page 2 of the history, tapnek edits. Few of them are re-added by nonamethanks.

Did you miss the "permanently" part? Tapnek didn't restructure the pool, they nuked the pool entirely, presumably without asking anybody, and NNT fully reinstated it. Every single image Tapnek removed was readded. You're really not doing yourself any favors if you can't even interpret these edits correctly.

blindVigil said:

Did you miss the "permanently" part? Tapnek didn't restructure the pool, they nuked the pool entirely, presumably without asking anybody, and NNT fully reinstated it. Every single image Tapnek removed was readded. You're really not doing yourself any favors if you can't even interpret these edits correctly.

Every single image? apparently this one missed your radar.

Rathurue said:

Every single image? apparently this one missed your radar.

That one was removed by someone else, oh my god. NNT added EVERY SINGLE IMAGE REMOVED BY TAPNEK, YES. feline lump removed that one afterwards.

Rathurue said:

That's the point: why even remove posts to add them later? If you're going to restructure the pool based on what the wiki said it's better to just rebuilt it from zero AKA deletion or renaming after removing all population that doesn't fit with the category. But instead people keep readding things that clearly doesn't fit into the pool.

Already told you it wasn't restructured, it was deleted by someone with no right to do so and then undeleted by an admin.

blindVigil said:

That one was removed by someone else, oh my god. NNT added EVERY SINGLE IMAGE REMOVED BY TAPNEK, YES. feline lump removed that one afterwards.

But it IS removed from the pool permanently. Yes, it's sematics, but the discussion inside the comment in the image itself was my point.
Back then people still have brain to understand black skin doesn't instantly mean they're minority.

Rathurue said:

But it IS removed from the pool permanently. Yes, it's sematics, but the discussion inside the comment in the image itself was my point.

I said ALMOST every image ever added to the pool was still in it. Images get removed from pools all the time. That's normal. Images that don't belong in a pool get removed. If you think images don't belong, remove them yourself. If someone readds them, get over it.

If the only argument you have is a stupid semantics argument, that doesn't even properly account for the words I'm saying to you, then just stop.

what the hell did I just cause

TheGreatDeer said:

"Depiction of Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American would belong to this pool"

Why call the pool "minorities", then? Because they're rarely depicted in animes/mangas?

Billmaster said:

what the hell did I just cause

Don't worry, it's a common thing in Danbooru to have someone drunk/high on something and goes picking fight with everybody in comment section.
Yes, I'm drunk with eggnog during the whole thing.

FRien said:

Why call the pool "minorities", then? Because they're rarely depicted in animes/mangas?

The pool has been problematic since it's first inception, as 'Minorities' is both too broad of a term and ambiguous of what it really counts for: 'minority' as in 'least represented/existing in anime style art', 'a situation where one person was different from a lot of other person' or basically anything else. The pool's content are also a mixed bag of things that fits the wiki entry and things tossed in the for...well, inclusivity reasons.

Made a forum post about rename request here but even as I sobered up I can't make a better name than 'Uncommon Representation', which hopefully clears up the pool's function as per the wiki entry.

Rathurue said:

Don't worry, it's a common thing in Danbooru to have someone drunk/high on something and goes picking fight with everybody in comment section.
Yes, I'm drunk with eggnog during the whole thing.

That's not common at all.

The pool's content are also a mixed bag of things that fits the wiki entry and things tossed in the for...well, inclusivity reasons.

Inclusivity has nothing to do with it.

blindVigil said:
Inclusivity has nothing to do with it.

Do explain why the pool used to have a literal BLM poster, random shots of black girl characters with afro hair, random dark skinned female characters by agawa ryou, and blackwashed Samus/Touhou characters then.

If the pool name doesn't make it clear who and which should enter the pool, it should either be removed or renamed.

Rathurue said:

Do explain why the pool used to have a literal BLM poster, random shots of black girl characters with afro hair, random dark skinned female characters by agawa ryou, and blackwashed Samus/Touhou characters then.

If the pool name doesn't make it clear who and which should enter the pool, it should either be removed or renamed.

Why is this so important to you?

RdKitsune said:

Why is this so important to you?

Because Pools are made to be used properly. Not to be used as dumping site of anything that passes somebody's fancy.

The reason the minorities tag pool was created is because of yoruichi.

Or just generally the shitstorm cause by the ambiguity of dark skin anime girls that would have made race tags obnoxious. That’s also why there’s a “very dark skin” tag now instead of just saying black.

Also because certain races aren’t usually in anime…but yeah, I always thought minorities or “hey look minorities” was a misnomer, and sounded a bit cringe. It’s also been used in some cringe ways on this website. But Ll thr alternative names would be more cringe.

Race is a cringe subject.

It probably shoudknt be surprising that there are arguments about this all this time later lol

Rathurue said:

Do explain why the pool used to have a literal BLM poster, random shots of black girl characters with afro hair, random dark skinned female characters by agawa ryou, and blackwashed Samus/Touhou characters then.

Because anyone can edit pools? And not everyone cares enough to keep them clean? Why are you so damn convinced there's some kind of conspiracy agenda at play here? This pool has existed for almost as long as you've had an account, and now you've got a problem with it?

Rathurue said:

Because Pools are made to be used properly. Not to be used as dumping site of anything that passes somebody's fancy.

Then why have you done barely any pool edits in the 14 years you've used the site? Why is this the pool that sets you off? Why don't you fix this user's almost 23k pool pollutions? This user has done nothing but do exactly what you're claiming to be fighting against, but the pool primarily featuring "non-white" characters is where you draw the line?

blindVigil said:

Because anyone can edit pools? And not everyone cares enough to keep them clean? Why are you so damn convinced there's some kind of conspiracy agenda at play here? This pool has existed for almost as long as you've had an account, and now you've got a problem with it?

Then why have you done barely any pool edits in the 14 years you've used the site? Why is this the pool that sets you off? Why don't you fix this user's almost 23k pool pollutions? This user has done nothing but do exactly what you're claiming to be fighting against, but the pool primarily featuring "non-white" characters is where you draw the line?

Oh riiight, let's go for personal attack now.
In case anybody would care, I'm a very causal user of Danbooru. I don't browse this site often, just occasional visit once per week at weekends where I go and browse things uploaded on that week, occasionally downloading things I've deemed good enough as personal collection and favoriting those who I thought well-drawn.

I do not, go from A to Z on this site, especially browsing things like pools. I do add things to pools I've known from time to time, but yesterday was the FIRST time I've even realized that we have a pool called 'Minorities' and learned how to see the pool edit history, despite how long I've been on this site. I'm that casual, and that's why I have problems with it: unlike the tag system that is 'tag what you see' a pool with ambiguous name will enable people to put things they *think* belong to the pool without checking the pool sorting category in the Wiki. And based on things ALREADY IN the pool for years before people trying to 'fix' the pool by removing that proves that point. Defending the pool's existence without acknowledging the problems it brings is just tolerating people's fault because there's no moderation at pools in general unless you being a busybody and look at an user's edit history, which practically nobody but someone with a very free schedule would do: as you've said, Danbooru are a site where everybody can contribute; why don't YOU fix the things you've noticed and not ask other people to do it for you? I've known the user you mentioned for a while from the comments they makes now and then, and I never knew that they did those things: because (again) I'm not a busybody who stalked people and browsed their profile for things to accuse them. I knew them at the level of 'hey it's that one user' by name.

You can chalk it to 'everybody's sense of art is different' anyway, and that's why a pool's description and wiki is important: to prevent people from polluting them: but wikis are only for people who actually read, and not judge things based on the Pool's name. What that user did perfectly demonstrates the issue of having indicative pool names instead of (very) generalized name that makes people think things belong in them without reading the wiki.

And why do you try to attack me based on the pool's content? Is it my fault to notice that most of the things NOT belonging in the pool based on the entry category that the wiki provides is mainly images of black people with afros? Does fulfilling those two tag category instantly grants an image free pass to the pool, then?

Rathurue said:

why don't YOU fix the things you've noticed and not ask other people to do it for you?

Because YOU are the one raising a fuss about the pool being full of shit that doesn't belong. Put your money where your mouth is.

So I just checked the pool changes. Did you just remove a drawing of Michael Jordan from the pool? You also removed ones that have a character that literally originated from Africa lorewise. Did you even check what you removed?

Can I just revert the changes? I can't really peruse the edits one by one right now.

bunkhead said:

Because YOU are the one raising a fuss about the pool being full of shit that doesn't belong. Put your money where your mouth is.

That's a GREAT way to make people do unwanted jobs, btw.
And yes, that what I shall do for the weekends. Gotta love making people doing free work, right?

TheGreatDeer said:

So I just checked the pool changes. Did you just remove a drawing of Michael Jordan from the pool? You also removed ones that have a character that literally originated from Africa lorewise. Did you even check what you removed?

Can I just revert the changes? I can't really peruse the edits one by one right now.

And that's how the pool continues to becomes polluted.
Why does Michael Jordan belongs to the pool, please explain. And yes I've removed Hououmaru and some Strike Witches images, because 1: I didn't know Hououmaru comes from Africa and 2: I haven't re-added the Strike Witches one.

Edit: there ya go, re-added things.

Funny thing that my comments here has an average of -5 score just few minutes after posting. I wonder who are those 5 people who keeps stalking this comment section and downvoting me...I can guess at least 4 of them.

I should just say, I was just commenting on the pool ij general. I wasn’t paying attention to whatever the fuck is going on here. It’s hard to tell if this is funny or not.

Maybe I’ll give it a read later

Rathurue said:

That's a GREAT way to make people do unwanted jobs, btw.
Gotta love making people doing free work, right?

You reap what you sow.

bunkhead said:

You reap what you sow.

No, that's called making people a scapegoat. By making me aware of other pool problems you two forced me to act against those pools too unless I don't act and then you can put forward the racist allegations being ONLY averse to pool with black people in it. It's a well-known tactic in management to bend somebody's will to be more lax against the rules and I won't fall to that.

Rathurue said:

You need therapy, mate.

bunkhead said:

You need therapy, mate.

No, I need justice.
And btw tried my hand with sorting that user's mess and I found out that I'm terribly bad at separating things that is plain cute and disgustingly adorable. At this pace I'd go and empty the Disgustingly Adorable pool...ah well, somebody could just reverse my edits later, that's not my problem.

It is rather ironic that one should initiate a discussion by insulting anyone who may dare disagree with internet rando #120517 as

Rathurue said:

easily offended people.

Then go on a huge tirade when the world doesn't roll over for them. And vandalize the pool in question in anger when they get offended. Just want to make sure this edit is brought to people's attention.

slave2thedrago said:

It’s hard to tell if this is funny or not.

Maybe I’ll give it a read later

It's very silly.

Rathurue said:

No, I need justice.

Are you just trying to be banned AGAIN for being xenophobic?
Just take the L and grow up for damn sake. Go to /pol/ and stay there if you want to whine about brown people and get accolades and praise for it.

FubukiKai said:

It is rather ironic that one should initiate a discussion by insulting anyone who may dare disagree with internet rando #120517 as

Then go on a huge tirade when the world doesn't roll over for them. And vandalize the pool in question in anger when they get offended. Just want to make sure this edit is brought to people's attention.

People who call fixing pools vandalizing clearly doesn't understand art.

Art is forever, and since the very start of being a concept, subjective. One people's appreciation of art doesn't mean other people will understand and appreciate the same art; the very same reason why cubist art, impressionist art and minimalist art exists and people still ranting about how they can't understand these kinds of art yet gets criticized back by people who 'understand' them. If I went around and removed entries that doesn't match with what my interpretation of the Wiki was, am I at fault for understanding the wiki that way? It's not done in anger, or retribution, or anything, nor it is done for vandalizing. In fact, if you can give me a reason why my edits are regarded as 'vandalization' then do explain to me; I'd be happy to explain why I removed each posts from the pool.

Still waiting for explanation why that Michael Jordan and Madoka picture as well as the BLM one belong in the 'Minorities' pool, btw.

It's vandalization because moderators and comunity agreed to be there and yet you remove them without asking for permission. Plain and simple. Art is forever, and since the very start of being a concept, subjective. One people's appreciation of art doesn't mean other people will understand and appreciate the same art. If all you do is remove without building, it doesn't matter where you are, that's the concept of vandalism: "any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good".

You could have made a thread on the forum to discuss about the topic, but no. You had to take the most uneducated way possible, like a vandal.

rom_collector said:

It's vandalization because moderators and comunity agreed to be there and yet you remove them without asking for permission. Plain and simple. Art is forever, and since the very start of being a concept, subjective. One people's appreciation of art doesn't mean other people will understand and appreciate the same art. If all you do is remove without building, it doesn't matter where you are, that's the concept of vandalism: "any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good".

You could have made a thread on the forum to discuss about the topic, but no. You had to take the most uneducated way possible, like a vandal.

Last time I checked, while you do need permission to change a pool's name or wiki entry, there is no rule against removing posts from the pool that says it needs community and moderator approval.
So calling my edits 'vandalization' is pure sophistry. If I continue to remove without adding into the pool, it's not vandalism: just like hedge will grow into random shapes without trimming, a pool's coherence to the theme will continue to be compromised if there's no members that 'prune' the entries added without care to the pool.

We already have good example for that: just look up and you'll see a member has continued to add things to several pools despite being warned that they're doing it too liberally. And yet, what did other people do? Nothing. Those added post will continue to remain in the pool unless somebody wants to take action and remove them to the pool. If removing those unfitting posts are 'vandalization' because 'community' which 1: doesn't care about what's in the pool, 2: never browsed the pool or even knew it exists, and 3: doesn't bother tidying up the pool, and moderators who 1: don't have time to care about what gets added to the pool, 2: doesn't restrict the member in any sense to prevent them clogging the pool, 3: work details don't include moderating the pools then that argument are based on sheer ignorance.

And I already DID make a forum post before removing posts from the pool with the wiki entry as the basis of my conduct. Heck, this problem has been discussed before with 12 for deletion, 11 undecided and 7 against pool deletion, but the deletion itself never happened and ends up auto-rejected because it got timed out.

Rathurue said:

Last time I checked, while you do need permission to change a pool's name or wiki entry, there is no rule against removing posts from the pool that says it needs community and moderator approval.
So calling my edits 'vandalization' is pure sophistry. If I continue to remove without adding into the pool, it's not vandalism: just like hedge will grow into random shapes without trimming, a pool's coherence to the theme will continue to be compromised if there's no members that 'prune' the entries added without care to the pool.

All your so called trimming was just removing black people from the minority pool.
You ain't slick.

CitrusC said:

All your so called trimming was just removing black people from the minority pool.
You ain't slick.

And pray tell, as I already asked three times before: what does grant these posts the validation to be in the minority pool?
Look up to the pool's wiki and tell what I did wrong.

"Characters who are human, (part of) the main focus, and have an ethnic background other than European (American, Eastern and Western) or East Asian (Japan, Korea, China).

Depiction of Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American would belong to this pool also. Unless expressed by the content of the image or by the artist themself, characters with dark or tan skin don't necessarily fall into this pool."

Rathurue said:

And pray tell, as I already asked three times before: what does grant these posts the validation to be in the minority pool?
Look up to the pool's wiki and tell what I did wrong.

"Characters who are human, (part of) the main focus, and have an ethnic background other than European (American, Eastern and Western) or East Asian (Japan, Korea, China).

Depiction of Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American would belong to this pool also. Unless expressed by the content of the image or by the artist themself, characters with dark or tan skin don't necessarily fall into this pool."

You literally deleted all the characters described in there you dolt. You deleted a Black Dynamite character and are going "I dunno, it's just brown people, doesn't mean they are black"
Either you are a malicious racist which you were already banned once for or a completely incompetent dunce. Frankly neither puts you in a good position fit to make any rational judgement.

CitrusC said:

You literally deleted all the characters described in there you dolt. You deleted a Black Dynamite character and are going "I dunno, it's just brown people, doesn't mean they are black"
Either you are a malicious racist which you were already banned once for or a completely incompetent dunce. Frankly neither puts you in a good position fit to make any rational judgement.

At least I made a better judgement than people who left Barrett and Sahz in the pool, no? They're not a part of any earth ethnic background nor exhibit any racial traits that makes them fit into one of the inclusion criteria. It's other world and all, even if they have racial classification it should be 'East Gaea' or something like that which makes them unrelated to the pool.

And I am sure as hell I don't need to repeat this for the fourth time, but here we are: what makes the pictures I deleted belong to the pool? Is it the fact that they're dark-skinned? Is it the fact that they have curly hairs, or a combination of both?

Again, the inclusion criteria is exhibiting visual appearance that suggested that they are part Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American ethnic background. Given the anime artstyle that predominates most of the posts here, it is inherently hard to distinguish those characteristics, given the same oval-face style most art goes for; hence the addition of 'expressed by the artist or the context of the picture themself' part.

On that note, why you guys are focused only to the dark-skinned picture that got removed, and not the fair-skinned ones? What does the picture of Asirpa and Sugimoto hugging each other naked even have to do with Minority pool? I don't touch Pam Grier because she obviously fulfills the criteria of being in there, nor did I touch Chel or basically other characters that has valid reason to be there. I don't watch or know what Black Dynamite is because there's no entry for the wiki, and so I removed (the only) Honeybee art ON THE SITE from that pool and you're accusing me of 'malicious racism' because of that?

Unlike the 'mad racist' people on this comment section has been accusing me based on that one ban with 'xenophobia' reasoning, I'm always open for discussion. Hence why I asked the same question several times: what makes one think x belong to y pool? If your reasoning is sound, I'm willing to accept defeat.

Actually, why don't any people here just re-add what I removed, anyways? Is it to get higher ground to attack me on that basis?

Rathurue said:

Again, the inclusion criteria is exhibiting visual appearance that suggested that they are part Southeastern Asian, Middle Eastern Asian, Hispanic/Latino-Latina, African, and Native American ethnic background. Given the anime artstyle that predominates most of the posts here, it is inherently hard to distinguish those characteristics, given the same oval-face style most art goes for; hence the addition of 'expressed by the artist or the context of the picture themself' part.

On that note, why you guys are focused only to the dark-skinned picture that got removed, and not the fair-skinned ones? What does the picture of Asirpa and Sugimoto hugging each other naked even have to do with Minority pool? I don't touch Pam Grier because she obviously fulfills the criteria of being in there, nor did I touch Chel or basically other characters that has valid reason to be there. I don't watch or know what Black Dynamite is because there's no entry for the wiki, and so I removed (the only) Honeybee art ON THE SITE from that pool and you're accusing me of 'malicious racism' because of that?

If you can't identify Black Dynamite main cast for being black, then you are too stupid/blind to be making any judgement.
Also I didn't focus on anything. I selected few posts at random and they were all dark skinned people which I gave up bothering to look further when goddamn Honey Bee from Black Dynamite was showing as one of those deleted posts.
Finally, people did re-add because they had to fix your garbage ass vandalism.

CitrusC said:

If you can't identify Black Dynamite main cast for being black, then you are too stupid/blind to be making any judgement.
Also I didn't focus on anything. I selected few posts at random and they were all dark skinned people which I gave up bothering to look further when goddamn Honey Bee from Black Dynamite was showing as one of those deleted posts.
Finally, people did re-add because they had to fix your garbage ass vandalism.

Not everybody know Black Dynamite is even a show. Most likely nobody even know we have a Black Dynamite tag or even Honey Bee art on this site, given it's only ONE. That's how important wiki entry is. And even now the wiki for both Black Dynamite and Honey Bee STILL remains empty.

And I'm currently looking at the pool version page. Who is it, at the time of your reply posted, that 're-add' to fix my 'garbage ass' vandalism? Go look at it and say the name or the member ID. NOBODY did, except me who added some Otoyomegatari posts which definitely belongs to this pool instead of all those posts I've removed. These posts clearly show the characters being NOT of excluded category AND portrays the ethnic culture that is the second criteria of the pool inclusion. Compare them to the removed posts: do any of those portrays specific intent of the author to 'exhibit the characteristics of some ethnic background' or 'makes context that this is what X people does"? I won't go into specifics for each and every picture I've removed, but I'd ask: Do black people wearing Hooters costume portrays hispanic/african-american culture? Did a black girl getting creampied portrays both of those? Heck, that's outright degrading them because it portrays them just as eye-candy and does nothing to exemplar both the ethnic group and culture.

Maybe make a better argument next time instead just making up things.

Rathurue said:

Not everybody know Black Dynamite is even a show. Most likely nobody even know we have a Black Dynamite tag or even Honey Bee art on this site, given it's only ONE. That's how important wiki entry is. And even now the wiki for both Black Dynamite and Honey Bee STILL remains empty.

And I'm currently looking at the pool version page. Who is it, at the time of your reply posted, that 're-add' to fix my 'garbage ass' vandalism? Go look at it and say the name or the member ID. NOBODY did, except me who added some Otoyomegatari posts which definitely belongs to this pool instead of all those posts I've removed. These posts clearly show the characters being NOT of excluded category AND portrays the ethnic culture that is the second criteria of the pool inclusion. Compare them to the removed posts: do any of those portrays specific intent of the author to 'exhibit the characteristics of some ethnic background' or 'makes context that this is what X people does"? I won't go into specifics for each and every picture I've removed, but I'd ask: Do black people wearing Hooters costume portrays hispanic/african-american culture? Did a black girl getting creampied portrays both of those? Heck, that's outright degrading them because it portrays them just as eye-candy and does nothing to exemplar both the ethnic group and culture.

Maybe make a better argument next time instead just making up things.

You've doing some good work so why do you have to be so petulant, childish and insecure in your comments?
Like, let's take this case of Black Dynamite, this is how I'd make your argument for you:
The show is mostly African-Americans from what little research I did. African-Americans are almost always the first choice when an anime/manga needs a foreigner, so I wouldn't include them in the pool.

Moving on!

In your fervor you also accidentally removed some images that belong:
post #3723751: Asirpa is Ainu, the only other anime I know to feature them is Shaman King.
post #3464243: as far as I know Dora is Latina; post #5255359: Luz is Dominican-American; post #5313101: Anne is Thai-American; post #6439706: Miguel is Irish-Mexican; post #3817729: based on the name, Sowande might be of West-African descent.
Please do some research before removing images.

post #2282743, post #2282741 and several more: apart from skin color you should also look at what the characters are wearing, religious minorities like Muslims or Jewish also belong in the pool.

bunkhead said:

You've doing some good work so why do you have to be so petulant, childish and insecure in your comments?
Like, let's take this case of Black Dynamite, this is how I'd make your argument for you:
The show is mostly African-Americans from what little research I did. African-Americans are almost always the first choice when an anime/manga needs a foreigner, so I wouldn't include them in the pool.

Moving on!

In your fervor you also accidentally removed some images that belong:
post #3723751: Asirpa is Ainu, the only other anime I know to feature them is Shaman King.
post #3464243: as far as I know Dora is Latina; post #5255359: Luz is Dominican-American; post #5313101: Anne is Thai-American; post #6439706: Miguel is Irish-Mexican; post #3817729: based on the name, Sowande might be of West-African descent.
Please do some research before removing images.

post #2282743, post #2282741 and several more: apart from skin color you should also look at what the characters are wearing, religious minorities like Muslims or Jewish also belong in the pool.

Okay, where the heck do you get the 'petulant, childish and insecure' part? The part where I stuck real tight to the rules or the part where I said those nsfw works are degrading image of black girls in general? Or the part where I pointed out that people in the comments section are basically using the fact that I've banned once for 'xenophobia' as basis for personal attacks on my judgement?

And here's the reason why I removed those images:
All of them does not fit the 'unless expressed by the artist or the context of the image themself' part of the wiki entry. As I mentioned before in earlier comments, a wiki entry for a pool is like admission criteria for that pool, and by no means it should be applied only partially: if you try to do such it will create a condition where a post will only fulfill certain condition but miss the rest of the sorting logic.

Let's pick an example based on some posts. #1361112 depicts Amira shooting a bow from horseback in traditional clothing.
It fulfills all the criteria of the wiki: 1: She is who are human, 2: she is the main focus if the piece, 3: she comes from an ethnic background other than European (American, Eastern and Western) or East Asian (Japan, Korea, China).

She also pass the part B of the wiki: Her tribe is part of Middle Eastern Asian ethnic culture. And most importantly she passed the part C check: the artist definitely meant to showcase Amira's ethnic background with the piece as a whole.

Now let's see how a post only partially fulfills the criteria. I left several of these in case of people checking the pool and accused me of being biased, and lo and behold, the fact that they're still there proven that I'm right about that. post #3951383, for example: the character is human, is the main focus of the scene, *doesn't explain what ethnicity she was from except the fact that she is dark-skinned and the keyword ebony*, which only partially fulfills the 3rd criterion. Does she even comes from Earth or shares the ethnic classification from it? Nobody could know. That makes she doesn't pass the part B of the wiki, since we don't have any information about her background. She does pass the part C, since the artist explicitly states that the piece was drawn with her as the centerpiece, and her skin color is an important fact for that.

Another example would be post #6743287: it has failed the VERY FIRST criteria of being human in the first place. Who exactly added this picture surely doesn't pay any attention to the wiki AT ALL. Yes, he used to be human, a Mesoamerican at that but the Orlox as we know in the picture is a vampire. Surely you doesn't mean a character's meta backstory applies retroactively, so a vampire character could count as 'human' because they used to be one?

Last but not least example is post #6509138: it is a personification of rice milk.
You heard it right. A personification of rice milk. It wasn't human in the first place, it doesn't belong to ANY ethnical group, and only being there because she has dark skin and curly/dread/braided hair, partially fulfilling the part C of being main focus of the piece. Double standards at it's best, no?

A character's meta background should not give them a free entry in the pool; that's the point why I argued that this pool should get renamed. If the only reason why that Asirpa picture belong in the pool was she is an Ainu, then why there's no other Ainu character in the pool before I added that one Usui Horokeu post? We already have a lot of Ainu characters in this site, why just Asirpa? There's even Kamoi from Kancolle in there, which definitely doesn't fit with the wiki filtering rule (post #2712072, which I left for proof why the pool sorting is bad). She's not an Ainu, she's not even human in the first place, but people still tossed it into the pool just because. In fact, if we consider Ainu people to be part of 'East Asian' ethnicity then ALL of them doesn't belong in this pool from the start. This is why the divide between the understanding of 'minority' as a 'group of people of same ethnicity that is less in number compared to the main ethnicity inhabiting a certain region' and 'minority' as 'a concept of things/being/group less represented' needs to be separated.

For all the other posts like Dora, Luz, Anne, Miguel and others: do they exhibit *any* specific ethnic group facial structures/characteristics/garment aside from the meta knowledge that their backstory states that they're from certain ethnic group? That's the same reason why I initially removed Hououmaru posts: because unless you know her backstory---which is quite far into the series and counts as spoiler, there's literally nothing that ties her into this pool. Sowande here is extra problematic: there's nothing in her official bio explained her ethnicity but the last name part, which again falls to 'Unless expressed by the content of the image or by the artist themself, characters with dark or tan skin don't necessarily fall into this pool' part of the wiki. If we just put her in because her appearances and last name, it would be the same as ignoring that rule, no?

On that note: she's more likely to be North African instead, given her olive eyes. This exclusion/inclusion case is really interesting; most of them are included because the meta background, while Sawade doesn't have any meta information BUT her name and that one specific character trait yet she needs to be included. Isn't that double standards?

The mass addition of Hououmaru images was because that one user calls for a bulk-addition after the fact gets revealed, anyway.

And there's nothing in the wiki that says religious minorities or their clothing also belongs to the pool: the act of re-adding those in is actual vandalism CitrusC quoted me doing---as far as it is concerned, the wiki only states geography-based ethnic groups, not religious group! I won't touch the posts you already re-added because you actually made arguments for it instead of blasting 'racism' here and 'xenophobic' there like the other people replying in the comments, I'd accept your interpretation of the rules but please put that bit about religious attire/minorities into the forum for clarification. Unless the wiki has additional part that doesn't actually written in it or you're just adding those based on the 'minority' as 'less represented' interpretation, I'll remove those posts for cleaning sake few days after this post.

tl;dr

Veraducks said:

tl;dr

If you don't want to read or to contribute to the discussion, kindly turn your eyes away. The length of that comment is necessary because some people doesn't get the point if one tried to describe it as short as possible.

Rathurue said:

Okay, where the heck do you get the 'petulant, childish and insecure' part?

You are petulant and childish because you keep ranting about pointless stuff like how you got banned or 'racism', 'xenophobia' or the definition of 'vandalism' instead of just succinctly defending your position.
You are insecure because you feel the need to post massive walls of text that amount to nothing but puff yourself up.

post #3951383
post #6743287
post #6509138

Agreed.

A character's meta background should not give them a free entry in the pool

Her clothes are in the fucking image! And she's sleeping in a fur bed!
If that's not Ainu enough for you, then I give up.

why there's no other Ainu character in the pool before I added that one Usui Horokeu post?

People are allowed to not add images to pools if they don't feel up to it.

For all the other posts like Dora, Luz, Anne, Miguel and others

They were in the pool so somebody thought they belong. I'd err on the side of caution and leave them be.

And there's nothing in the wiki that says religious minorities or their clothing also belongs to the pool

Religion is historically very heavily tied to ethnicity and geography. We do not have a separate pool for religious minorities and I believe that it's in the spirit of the pool's purpose. At the very least there's nothing explicitly prohibiting it.
Again, err on the side of caution.

bunkhead said:

You are petulant and childish because you keep ranting about pointless stuff like how you got banned or 'racism', 'xenophobia' or the definition of 'vandalism' instead of just succinctly defending your position.
You are insecure because you feel the need to post massive walls of text that amount to nothing but puff yourself up.

Gee, I wonder whose fault that I need to bring up that. Surely not the people who kept bringing the fact that they opened my profile, and see one negative feedback that links to the post where I said, not verbatim of course, 'this is why global players can't get good things. Chinese players raged when they see this PV and one even went as far as trying to assassinate MHY CEO' instead of just answering my question about 'why do you think x belong to this pool'; where's the xenophobia in that sentence I wonder? Maybe RaisingK can elucidate on that matter, if the deleted comment can be restored. People are also damning me for 'vandalism' unjustly because at a glance they only see that I removed only pictures that shares certain racial trait...except these picture doesn't belong in the pool. And why can't I put a wall of text to describe clearly, point per point, the reasons why I do things? Because even with that people are still deeming me 'insecure' of my own argument. Do I need to link each and every comment that accused me so, or maybe people could care to look up and see what happened?

Related to that, I shouldn't need to point this out but while I can understand the amount of downvotes or upvotes does nothing to your account and who gives a vote or upvote is based on their own take on the matter but mass downvoting an user's comment is against comment section rule. Heck, even passersby who simply commented in this post got the flak for no particular reason. Apparently, what counts as 'mass downvoting' is stalking the victim's comment history and downvoting those. So this claim is hereby retracted!

Her clothes are in the fucking image! And she's sleeping in a fur bed!
If that's not Ainu enough for you, then I give up.

And that's the point: the image only passed because the meta knowledge that she is an Ainu. It failed to portray their ways of life, their culture ETC that is mentioned as the third part of the inclusion rule: the focus is romance between the two and not the fact that Asirpa is an Ainu. In fact, Ainu people DO NOT sleep on fur bed historically; while hunting they sleep on temporary huts, with the ground lined up with reeds or simple mattress made from hide material: if you go and read Golden Kamuy Asirpa actually explained that very early on during her hunting trip where she fed Sugimoto citatap.

People are allowed to not add images to pools if they don't feel up to it.

Similarly, people are allowed to take out image from pools if they doesn't feel it belongs in that pool. When I did that, I got criticized for made-up reasons, which is unjust.

They were in the pool so somebody thought they belong. I'd err on the side of caution and leave them be.

To err in the side of caution is the very start of disaster in some cases, because that means you applied double standards. It's a wholly different reason from why those example posts are still inside of the pool: I left those as example of what people did to the pool for posteriority. Do I know they're wrongly placed? Yes. Then why did I left those? For argument's sake.

Religion is historically very heavily tied to ethnicity and geography. We do not have a separate pool for religious minorities and I believe that it's in the spirit of the pool's purpose. At the very least there's nothing explicitly prohibiting it.
Again, err on the side of caution.

Except in the wiki it's clearly described that the pool ONLY accepts entry based on regional ethnic divide. Explicitly, the wording limits the understanding of 'ethnic' (which does include religion) to only mention the regional side of the concept. It doesn't say anything about religion nor religional attributes, so if I go and 'err in the side of caution' by removing those posts it should be permitted. We already have tag for hijab which can very easily substitute their entry to the pool, and one post in particular is one of the 'bait' post I've left for scrutiny (post #6157195).

If people want to have the middle way of Minority pool also including those things, I've proposed a wiki and name update for the pool. Feel free to comment, debate, or whatsoever in the forum.

Rathurue said:

Related to that, I shouldn't need to point this out but while I can understand the amount of downvotes or upvotes does nothing to your account and who gives a vote or upvote is based on their own take on the matter but mass downvoting an user's comment is against comment section rule.

Just a quick clarification on the rules: “mass downvoting a user’s comments [to harass them]” is meant to forbid going through a user’s comments and mass downvoting everything, including unrelated comments. Downvoting all comments in a discussion one doesn’t agree with is allowed.

kittey said:

Just a quick clarification on the rules: “mass downvoting a user’s comments [to harass them]” is meant to forbid going through a user’s comments and mass downvoting everything, including unrelated comments. Downvoting all comments in a discussion one doesn’t agree with is allowed.

Ok, then I'll withdraw my claim.