animenutcase said: Tokiomi had no way of knowing what Zouken was doing for his daughter. Still was more than a little dickish for sending her away in the first place.
Meaning he was complete retard in addition of being epic failure of a father. He was just a useless piece of trash.
Gazami said: Meaning he was complete retard in addition of being epic failure of a father. He was just a useless piece of trash.
Right, because clearly anyone could see Sakura's purple hair and instantly deduce that she was being thrown to the rape worms. Was it foolish of Tokiomi to hand Sakura over without asking about how they were going to train her? Yes, but again, the Tohsaka and Makiri families had a long, long alliance. Tokiomi probably thought that meant the Matous were trustworthy. Naive? Yes. Worst father ever? No. That award would go to Zouken, who also wins the award for Worst Grandfather. I blame him, the stupid magus laws that dictate families can't train more than one child because "oh noes, that'll cause a succession crisis!" and the Japanese cultural structure that says once you give a child up for adoption, that's it, you can't contact them anymore.
Well, no, Zouken isn't the worst father ever because he's not a father, at least to anyone still left alive.
As for Tokiomi, whilst he didn't know what he was handing her over to, he was still far too wedded to the "cultural structure" you're blaming, to the point that he was willing to risk his daughter being horribly abused rather than going against it. That was *extremely* idiotic of him.
You guys are looking at it strangely. Tokiomi was a magus through and through, more so than a father most likely. Giving Sakura to Matou meant both his children could become magi. All magi suffer more or less during their training and sacrifice something. It's entirely possible he would have given Sakura to Matou even if he had known something of the obscene Matou training methods - although I doubt he would have if he'd known the old Matou vampire's real intentions.
Blaming Japanese Adoption...what the fuck are you talking about? nothing suggests they cut off all contact with Sakura forever, or intended to. Tokiomi was simply following Magus Traditions, instead of training one daughter and keeping one out of the loop forever, he gave Sakura over to the Matou becuase they have had a long alliance and that way she could become their successor and a strong Magus in her own right, and eventually compete against Rin in a Grail War. Regardless of how you feel, he THOUGHT he was doing the best thing for his children. He had no way of knowing exactly what kind of "training" the Matou did since you don't go poking your nose into other people's business.
Is he the best father ever? no but let's not try and make him out to be Zouken 2.0 or something when he wasn't.
Emporer-Wakamoto said: Blaming Japanese Adoption...what the fuck are you talking about? nothing suggests they cut off all contact with Sakura forever, or intended to. Tokiomi was simply following Magus Traditions, instead of training one daughter and keeping one out of the loop forever, he gave Sakura over to the Matou becuase they have had a long alliance and that way she could become their successor and a strong Magus in her own right, and eventually compete against Rin in a Grail War. Regardless of how you feel, he THOUGHT he was doing the best thing for his children. He had no way of knowing exactly what kind of "training" the Matou did since you don't go poking your nose into other people's business.
Is he the best father ever? no but let's not try and make him out to be Zouken 2.0 or something when he wasn't.
Well, for one thing, Rin herself says that after Sakura was given up for adoption, she couldn't just go see her whenever she wanted. There's also this thing about divorces where when one parent gets custody of the kids, the other parent typically doesn't see them ever again. I apologize, I should have made that clear.
Emporer-Wakamoto said: Blaming Japanese Adoption...what the fuck are you talking about? nothing suggests they cut off all contact with Sakura forever, or intended to. Tokiomi was simply following Magus Traditions, instead of training one daughter and keeping one out of the loop forever, he gave Sakura over to the Matou becuase they have had a long alliance and that way she could become their successor and a strong Magus in her own right, and eventually compete against Rin in a Grail War. Regardless of how you feel, he THOUGHT he was doing the best thing for his children. He had no way of knowing exactly what kind of "training" the Matou did since you don't go poking your nose into other people's business.
Is he the best father ever? no but let's not try and make him out to be Zouken 2.0 or something when he wasn't.
He's not Zouken 2.0, but if you read the prologue of Fate/zero, it shows he knows the Matou don't give a hoot about the Root or the pursuit of it anymore, so him expecting the Matou, who not only aren't really pursuing magic for magic's sake anymore, who refused apprentices for decades, who have had bloodline thin to what it is now, and an undying patriarch who hasn't given over his Crest to anyone for hundreds of years to suddenly want an heir? Should raise some alarm bells on the worth of this family and their intents.
He loved his daughters in his own way, but he is pretty (dangerously)oblivious.
He's not a failure as a human being though, people should stop making him into a worse person then he really is. The Root is something that only the Einzbern even give a damn about anymore, blood line thinning? that means nothing since it's not something that can just be "fixed".
He gave his daughter away to be tortured. I think that qualifies him as a "failure as a human being", even if he was negligent rather than actively malicious.
Both sides are making assumptions based on a lack of info.
Did he know what the Matou were doing to her? Debateable. They've been allies for generations, but he doesn't know how their magecraft works? He doesn't know Zouken hasn't given the crest for his family up for generations nor accepted any new apprentices in decades? If he was truly ignorant of all this, then he's guilty of horrible, horrible negligence (why not try asking his wife's friend, who left the Matou family despite being born with actual talent for magecraft, why he chose to do so), though not necessarily malice.
The problem is, he specifically states in the Fate/Zero prologue that the Matou have given up on searching for the Root... so his excuse of wanting both his children to grow up to be great magi who will one day compete to reach The Root makes no sense, unless he thinks Zouken inexplicably changed his mind. It's entirely possible that he had an inkling of what Sakura was in store for, but, given the traditonal magus mentality, he may have felt the sacrifices were worth it to see her potential as a magus realized (because he truly wanted both his girls to become great magi).
In that case he's a horrible father, but magi in general are magi first, parents second, if that. Children exist solely to carry the family's craft from one generation to the next, nothing more. It still wasn't done out of genuine malice though. I'd wager if he had been put through even half of what Sakura had, he'd change his tune as to whether or not it was worth it though. And if he knew Zouken never really intended for Sakura to be anything more than breeding fodder at best, a sacrifice to create a new Lesser Grail at worst, he'd definitely not have handed her over to him.
He's an awful parent regardless of the exact circumstances, but not the worst parent in fiction, or even arguably the worst parent in the Type Moon multiverse (though I find it funny that Kirei of all people showed more consideration for his child than Tokiomi did).
Kirei.Kirei!!kisskisskissHappy birthday and congratulations.Ri...Rin?Happy birthday.So you have come,I'm going to see father next!Please wait your turn!!Thank you.Teacher.Father...Hey,Ah.Rin!"Turn"..?It's not much, but...
