Because the most common English-speaking way of doing "janken" is to say "One, two, three" while holding their fists out, or else saying "rock, paper, scissors". I ruled out "rock, paper, scissors" because Admiral had just said "rock", and it would be confusing.
Because the most common English-speaking way of doing "janken" is to say "One, two, three" while holding their fists out, or else saying "rock, paper, scissors". I ruled out "rock, paper, scissors" because Admiral had just said "rock", and it would be confusing.
I'll give that it's the most familiar chant for the English version of the game, but we're not dealing with characters from an Anglophone/Western culture, but rather ones who subscribe to Japanese culture. AFAIK, we're not supposed to go as far as to localize every idiom or phrase to the Western equivalent, otherwise it would give carta blanche to follow the Pokemon dub's example and translate every instance of onigiri as "sandwiches"/"cookies"/"onions"/"jelly donuts"/"popcorn balls"/whatever-new-term-the-stupid-dubbers-come-up-with-that-is-not-rice-balls.
I'll give that it's the most familiar chant for the English version of the game, but we're not dealing with characters from an Anglophone/Western culture, but rather ones who subscribe to Japanese culture. AFAIK, we're not supposed to go as far as to localize every idiom or phrase to the Western equivalent, otherwise it would give carta blanche to follow the Pokemon dub's example and translate every instance of onigiri as "sandwiches"/"cookies"/"onions"/"jelly donuts"/"popcorn balls"/whatever-new-term-the-stupid-dubbers-come-up-with-that-is-not-rice-balls.
It's not like "Jan" means "rock", either ("guu" does, which was why I translated that one as "rock"), so the same argument applies just as well to either way you'd translate it.
Translation should be primarily concerned with preservation of meaning, not simple transliteration of words. You complain about onigiri changed into "onions" because that changes what they are actually eating, and what it might say about the characters. There are many expressions that simply don't have direct literal translations, and therefore take some understanding of the context to insert something that would mean the same thing to an audience as the original was intended to mean to a Japanese audience.
There's no reason to prefer "rock paper scissors" over "one two three", and, as I said, it's confusing to have "here comes rock" followed by "rock paper scissors", since it sounds like it's part of the chant, rather than a preemptive declaration of intent.
It's not like "Jan" means "rock", either ("guu" does, which was why I translated that one as "rock"), so the same argument applies just as well to either way you'd translate it.
True on the meaning of jan, but jan-ken-pon as a whole does translate to "rock, paper, scissors", just with the actual words reordered. Heck, if we're going literally, none of the words in "jan-ken-pon" actually translate to "rock"; the stand-in for rock is "ken", which is written with the kanji for "fist".
Translation should be primarily concerned with preservation of meaning, not simple transliteration of words. You complain about onigiri changed into "onions" because that changes what they are actually eating, and what it might say about the characters.
Yes, and that's pretty much what you were doing here. Japanese do have instances where they do actually say "one, two, three!" (i.e. ichi, ni, san!) as a chant. I don't see how there could be a good reason to translate jan-ken-pon as if it were synonymous with ichi-ni-san; just because "one-two-three" and "rock-paper-scissors" are interchangeable in the English-language rock-paper-scissors chant does not mean that we can treat another language/culture's chant for the same game the same way when translating it.
There are many expressions that simply don't have direct literal translations, and therefore take some understanding of the context to insert something that would mean the same thing to an audience as the original was intended to mean to a Japanese audience.
There's no reason to prefer "rock paper scissors" over "one two three", and, as I said, it's confusing to have "here comes rock" followed by "rock paper scissors", since it sounds like it's part of the chant, rather than a preemptive declaration of intent.
See above. And honestly, I do not see how it can be confusing to have "First comes rock!" followed by "Rock-". In fact, it would be an unintentional case of the English translation making more apparent sense than the original Japanese, because the translation makes it so the chant does start with "rock" (I doubt that's the actual intention of the Japanese chant's first part, though; perhaps it's an instruction/reminder to stick with the rock hand-sign until it's time to throw out the hand).
True on the meaning of jan, but jan-ken-pon as a whole does translate to "rock, paper, scissors", just with the actual words reordered. Heck, if we're going literally, none of the words in "jan-ken-pon" actually translate to "rock"; the stand-in for rock is "ken", which is written with the kanji for "fist".
Yes, and that's pretty much what you were doing here. Japanese do have instances where they do actually say "one, two, three!" (i.e. ichi, ni, san!) as a chant. I don't see how there could be a good reason to translate jan-ken-pon as if it were synonymous with ichi-ni-san; just because "one-two-three" and "rock-paper-scissors" are interchangeable in the English-language rock-paper-scissors chant does not mean that we can treat another language/culture's chant for the same game the same way when translating it.
You ignore the point I was making, though...
"Jan" isn't "rock", and neither is "ken". ("Jan" basically means "both", and "ken" means "hand". Janken is a game where *both* players oppose each other's *hand*. You don't translate it as "both hand", however, just like you don't do literal translations of something like "itadakimasu".) It's translated into "rock" sometimes because that's what it functionally means in instances like this... and so would "one". "Jan-ken-pon" doesn't mean "rock-paper-scissors" any more than it means "one-two-three", so either way is exactly as valid as the other.
MarqFJA87 said:
See above. And honestly, I do not see how it can be confusing to have "First comes rock!" followed by "Rock-". In fact, it would be an unintentional case of the English translation making more apparent sense than the original Japanese, because the translation makes it so the chant does start with "rock" (I doubt that's the actual intention of the Japanese chant's first part, though; perhaps it's an instruction/reminder to stick with the rock hand-sign until it's time to throw out the hand).
So, you can't translate "jan-ken-pon" as "one-two-three" because there are direct one-to-one matches in translations, and that requires there be "hi-fuu-mii"/"ichi-ni-san", but that argument doesn't apply to "Guu" and "Jan" both being translated as "rock"? Aren't those mutually exclusive arguments?
In any event, there are two meanings to "最初はぐう", the more literal of which is "make a fist (rock sign) while we do the chant", with the implied "the chant starts right after this". If you want so badly, it could be "Start with a fist! Rock, paper, scissors!", but that's making the first part a less literal translation for no good reason...
