> Kishinami: Wait, I am still not implemented?!

Tell that to the Yamato sisters; they're still waiting for their half-sister... XD

ZeonTwoSix said:

> Kishinami: Wait, I am still not implemented?!

Tell that to the Yamato sisters; they're still waiting for their half-sister... XD

At least Kishinami was a finished/full-fledged ship. Shinano wasn't even really fully completed when sunk (they got her up to technically seaworthy, then tried to move her because they realized her home port wasn't safe anymore, only to get sunk while moving to a safer port for completion), so there's some justification for not including her. (Although, granted, if they have Graf Zeppelin....)

Also, there's the fact that Shinano wasn't even meant to be a proper fleet carrier, but a heavily armored escort carrier/transport that mostly just ferried aircraft around, making her a much less sexy war machine. In spite of being much larger than Kaga, Kaga carried 75 aircraft it could launch, while Shinano was only supposed to be able to actually launch 42. While Shinano could carry more aircraft in storage, they would be stored in a manner that wouldn't make them actually capable of being put on the decks and launched quickly enough to be useful in combat.

Sorry Kishinami. Devs decided to release more DEs instead...

NWSiaCB said:

At least Kishinami was a finished/full-fledged ship. Shinano wasn't even really fully completed when sunk (they got her up to technically seaworthy, then tried to move her because they realized her home port wasn't safe anymore, only to get sunk while moving to a safer port for completion), so there's some justification for not including her. (Although, granted, if they have Graf Zeppelin....)

Also, there's the fact that Shinano wasn't even meant to be a proper fleet carrier, but a heavily armored escort carrier/transport that mostly just ferried aircraft around, making her a much less sexy war machine. In spite of being much larger than Kaga, Kaga carried 75 aircraft it could launch, while Shinano was only supposed to be able to actually launch 42. While Shinano could carry more aircraft in storage, they would be stored in a manner that wouldn't make them actually capable of being put on the decks and launched quickly enough to be useful in combat.

Inb4 Shinano becomes first (and only) CV to carry Daihatsus... XD

NWSiaCB said:

At least Kishinami was a finished/full-fledged ship. Shinano wasn't even really fully completed when sunk (they got her up to technically seaworthy, then tried to move her because they realized her home port wasn't safe anymore, only to get sunk while moving to a safer port for completion), so there's some justification for not including her. (Although, granted, if they have Graf Zeppelin....)

Don't forget Aquila which is basically a papership.

Who would win?:

The entirety of IJN's First Striking Force, or a small fleet of tin can bois?

If you get this you sir are a true WW2 naval historian.

Adolf95 said:

Who would win?:

The entirety of IJN's First Striking Force, or a small fleet of tin can bois?

If you get this you sir are a true WW2 naval historian.

To be fair, Kurita was wary of the the opposition since it was fierce enough to delay, or even blunt, his push south. If he decided to push forward, the tin cans would likely crumple but the Big Sticks could very well appear right along their flanks.

AdventZero said:

To be fair, Kurita was wary of the the opposition since it was fierce enough to delay, or even blunt, his push south. If he decided to push forward, the tin cans would likely crumple but the Big Sticks could very well appear right along their flanks.

Which was Ozawa's task to lure the big sticks away... And succeeded.

T34/38 said:

Which was Ozawa's task to lure the big sticks away... And succeeded.

Exactly. Too bad Ozawa wasn't able to communicate that to Kurita during all the commotion that happened. Otherwise, we might get to see the Pacific Theater stretch out for maybe half a year longer than in this timeline.

Wasn't Shimakaze stuck at the rear of the fleet during the Battle off Samar?

Didn't this make her unable to participate in the battle?

Yeah, you heard me right, the speed freak couldn't hoof it.

AdventZero said:

Exactly. Too bad Ozawa wasn't able to communicate that to Kurita during all the commotion that happened. Otherwise, we might get to see the Pacific Theater stretch out for maybe half a year longer than in this timeline.

Read: a few million Japanese civilians starving to death from Operation Starvation.

AdventZero said:

Exactly. Too bad Ozawa wasn't able to communicate that to Kurita during all the commotion that happened. Otherwise, we might get to see the Pacific Theater stretch out for maybe half a year longer than in this timeline.

Not really. Even with the unexpected success of the decoy/Halsey's "Bull Run", the fleet was fully capable of turning around and trapping Kurita's fleet (the only reason it didn't happen in actual history is because Halsey, after being berated by the Admiralty, decided to go have a cry in his quarters for a few more hours), with the only way out being either through Halsey's fleet, or all the way through the several other American fleets further East or South. Merely getting to the beachhead isn't enough, it takes time to actually shell and destroy everything, and the US Army had already established land bases for aircraft which were fully capable of launching hundreds of aircraft at the attacking Japanese fleet. (Which was demonstrated by the fact that they were already doing so with such numbers that Kurita presume he simply MUST be within range of the third fleet, because there's a FUCKTON of aircraft attacking him, aren't there?)

In short, the naval battle of Leyte Gulf was a bad plan hatched of sheer desperation that would have been utter suicide even had it worked as intended.

Adolf95 said:

Who would win?:

The entirety of IJN's First Striking Force, or a small fleet of tin can bois?

If you get this you sir are a true WW2 naval historian.

How about this

Who would win:

The 2nd class of the Yamato, armed with big guns and thicc armor, or a vengeful, angry USN Carrier

AdventZero said:

we might get to see the Pacific Theater stretch out for maybe half a year longer than in this timeline.

I don't think so... the Japanese were already losing so if they manage to push through Leyte, their timely defeat was inevitable, but we can expect more deaths, lots of deaths... and Ten-Go wouldn't have happened.

Eboreg said:

Wasn't Shimakaze stuck at the rear of the fleet during the Battle off Samar?

Didn't this make her unable to participate in the battle?

Yeah, you heard me right, the speed freak couldn't hoof it.

She could not go at full speed because she had Musashi and Maya's survivors on board, making her unsuited for combat. (You can't fire your guns or torps with wounded people on deck, nor go at full speed, risking throwing people overboard). She rescued some 500 people, which is a shitton of people for her (she had a complement of 267).

AdventZero said:

To be fair, Kurita was wary of the the opposition since it was fierce enough to delay, or even blunt, his push south. If he decided to push forward, the tin cans would likely crumple but the Big Sticks could very well appear right along their flanks.

There is no maybe about it, the line that had crushed Nishimura was already shifting north and forming up, by the time Kurita could have wrangled his ships back together to try and keep going they would have been waiting and by this point with the attrition inflicted on center force it would have almost no notable advantage in strength while having to assualt a highly defensible strait under constant air attack.

The only thing that happens is that Oldendorf's name ascends to be mentioned in the same standing as Nelson, Togo, etc for crossing the T of and putting to rout two separate enemy battlelines in less then a day.

NWSiaCB said:

Not really. Even with the unexpected success of the decoy/Halsey's "Bull Run", the fleet was fully capable of turning around and trapping Kurita's fleet (the only reason it didn't happen in actual history is because Halsey, after being berated by the Admiralty, decided to go have a cry in his quarters for a few more hours),

That's not what happened, that's just as much bullshit the other way as some of his defenses shortly after the war.

What actually happened was that the first distress calls from the from the escort carriers where overheard a bit before 8 AM, but one must recall the entire cause of this problem. 7th and 3rd fleet where not really in the same chain of command and communication between them only occurred at the very highest levels and even that was fraught with problems as the communication system in the region was by this time simply becoming overloaded, a problem Halsey himself had noted sometime before. Thus while the reports where heard this still didn't amount to any sort of actual request or order directed at Halsey, the Taffys were part of 7th fleet not 3rd.

He thus continued his strike on the Northern Force at this time his battleships were also already ahead and closing the enemy force as well. Reports continued coming in, some of them directly from 7th fleet, and the urgency of the situation became more obvious, and here fault can be assigned him. Not turning instantly around at the first reports might be defensible, it could be an overreaction or inaccurate, it would hardly be the first time an over excited commander reported a vastly larger force then what was actually present, but the sustained and increasing number of them should have been a sign.

He did order Task Group 38.1 which was coming back from an aborted refueling to divert south around this time and they did get in range to launch some long range attacks that morning.

It's at this point mental dithering likely did occur. At some level he likely knew he'd fucked up now, but he was also getting close to the Northern Force. If he kept going and ran them down he would certainly annihilate them, if he turned back it wasn't clear he would arrive in time to effect whatever was happening to the south. In my view there is a real chance that he kept going even in the face of mounting danger to the south hoping that whatever was occurring there would resolve itself and he could at least hold up the annihilation of the Northern Force as a mitigating factor. (And ironically given how events worked out... that would have been the better call.)

The message from Nimitz however pretty well ended that rationalization and no he didn't go into his fucking cabin, after figuring out what he intended to do and reorganizing his forces to do so he was proceeding south within about an hour at about 11 AM. There was a further delay due to having to slow down to refuel destroyers after which he detached the eight more fueled destroyers, three cruisers, and his two fastest BB to try and make up time (3 carriers where also within range to support them).

As it was they still arrived too late and frankly it's questionable any response would have arrived in time. I've seen some claim that if he instantly detached the six fast battleships at the first concrete distress call he received at about 8 AM they could have raced south and arrived to intercept the retiring Center Force. I frankly consider this questionable and it strikes me as a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking.

First off the passing of new orders and reorganization that took about an hour originally still needs to occur. So at best the race south probably starts shortly after 9 AM (only about two hours sooner then it did in reality). The issue of many of the destroyers not having the fuel for a high-speed dash south (plus the reserves that would be needed for maximum speed battle maneuvers at the end) still exists, If the choice is made to slow to refuel them the same two and half hour delay is imposed it's a 300 mile or so trip and the formation speed is 25 knots with the fueling delay that's basically a 13.5 hour trip they'd arrive in the area of the strait at around 2230 hours Kurtia would have entered it an hour ahead of them.

If they leave the DD needing fuel behind the battleships and cruisers save time, but this would go against all doctrine even more so because any calculation shows the confrontation with the enemy will likely occur sometime after nightfall. The idea of racing six battleships and cruisers with a gutted screen into a confrontation with an enemy force known to include numerous light units with the by this time well understood high performance torpedoes would have rightly be seen as extremely foolish. Thus without leaving themselves much more open to "bad luck" with enemy torpedoes there is no real way Halsey's ships can get back in time.

But the most ironic and brutal truth of the matter is... this is all probably for the best.

TF34 as originally formed would have actually been smaller then Center Force which was also made up of much better and better drilled ships, even with the advantage of a strait to defend it's extremely unlikely the fight is anything like as one sided as Suriago. If even a single battleships is lost in the action that instantly is a hugely more important loss then a CVE and a few tin cans, even one cruiser is arguably a bigger loss. The fact of the matter is that the damage Kurtia did to Taffy 3 was mostly irrelevant 2 DD, a DE, and 1 CVE? That was literally maybe one weeks production by this point. Meanwhile it cost him 3 first rate heavy cruisers, ships Japan would not produce a SINGLE new example of during the entire war. If TF34 had arrived in time to try and block his withdrawal a much more confused and less planned action with a considerably higher chance of losses on the US side would have developed.

As it was none of the ships that got away would ever be relevant again. Engaging them in a major surface action with the risk of catastrophic loss of a vessel that almost always entailed would have been a waste of time. It wouldn't shorten the war, it wouldn't improve the situation in the present campaign, it would just kill a bunch more Japanese and possibly American sailors. It's one of those ironies of history that for all the blunders that occurred the way things worked out is probably almost perfect for the Americans and better for the Japanese then it could have been otherwise. As it was stopping center force ultimately cost them a handful of second rate ships that were comically easy to replace and about 1,500 dead, an actual pitched battle between fleets at night in the strait could have easily eclipsed that in an instant if say an 18 inch shell happens to find the magazine on a battleship, and for the Japanese attempting to press on certainly results in center force being annihilated and almost everyone on it dying.

and the US Army had already established land bases for aircraft which were fully capable of launching hundreds of aircraft at the attacking Japanese fleet. (Which was demonstrated by the fact that they were already doing so with such numbers that Kurita presume he simply MUST be within range of the third fleet, because there's a FUCKTON of aircraft attacking him, aren't there?)

Also no Army aircraft of any note where part of the battle. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, none of them had torpedoes and none of the pilots trained much in anti-ship operations with bombs. They were ashore for air defense and ground support. In the vent all the aircraft that attacked came from the Taffys or TG 38.1 which was still plenty as combined the former had about 400 aircraft which is more then were used in any carrier battle of the war before Philippines Sea. People tend to drastically underestimate just how much striking power was on those ships. The Taffy groups taken together represented about as much Naval Air as the entire Kidō Butai at it's height.

In short, the naval battle of Leyte Gulf was a bad plan hatched of sheer desperation that would have been utter suicide even had it worked as intended.

You're right about the plan being suicide even if it worked, but it would could have worked anyway. For all the hemming and hawing it's pretty well agreed by historians now there was no real chance Center Force every came anywhere near the transports. By the time Kurtia ordered the fleet to reform the 7th fleet battleline was already moving into position to block the straits they'd need to use to enter the gulf. Reports from the time detail exactly what they intended to do and it was to block said straight in basically the same manner they had Suriago, and there was basically nothing Kurtia could do about it.

Even if by some miracle some mangled pittance of the force emerges out the far side there is still the matter of something like 50 destroyers and DE being the area as dedicated escorts and it also ignores that the bulk of the shipping had already unloaded and left because the Sho plan took far too long to execute and that much of what was left had then been ordered clear at the first sightings of the approaching Japanese fleet. Thus they'd have found a gulf with really only a pittance transports mostly functioning as offshore depots and devoid of anything that would really drastically effect combat power ashore in a time frame that could matter like troops, guns, vehicles, etc.

hanesco said:

She could not go at full speed because she had Musashi and Maya's survivors on board, making her unsuited for combat. (You can't fire your guns or torps with wounded people on deck, nor go at full speed, risking throwing people overboard). She rescued some 500 people, which is a shitton of people for her (she had a complement of 267).

So the speed freak was already going as fast as humanly(?) possible towards the rear with the bodies of her wounded comrades stacked on top of her.

That takes a lot of guts for a destroyer.

hanesco said:

She could not go at full speed because she had Musashi and Maya's survivors on board, making her unsuited for combat. (You can't fire your guns or torps with wounded people on deck, nor go at full speed, risking throwing people overboard). She rescued some 500 people, which is a shitton of people for her (she had a complement of 267).

Yeah, I know. The fact that Shimakaze was out of action for not only her only real combat but also the kind of battle she seemed tailor-made for is an incredibly humiliating part of her history and, in my headcanon, makes her rather callous when it comes to rescue efforts.

Tk3997 said:

Long essay. TL;DR Kurita made the right choice and Halsey blundered to the right choice

I think you're forgetting the tin cans of Taffies 1 and 2. The Battle off Samar gave them a blueprint of how to face the oncoming Center Force and the jeep carriers would have had proper anti-ship ordnance loaded on their planes by the time the Center Force got to them. It may very well be that the Center Force would have suffered death by a thousand crazy-ass paper-cuts before any proper fleet action could have occurred.

And now Hamanami, Kishinami and Akishimo are all in. Time for Freddy to update this picture.