The comment section surly won't be spicy.

Hossinator said:

The comment section surly won't be spicy.

Yeah, it won't be like Touhou vs. Kantai Collection all over again.

Notice the absence of DDs, which are presumably busy holding back the bad guys until these morons are done with their shenanigans.

Okay so basically there's one lucky guy who is being fought over by two games casts? Well if we factor in all of Azur Lanes fleet, it wins hands down due to Kancalle being well, the reclusive Kancolle. Plus, Azur lane has Enterprise so it's going to be a massacre of their mostly Japanese fleet, which Azur Lane also has.

But my only question is, who's gonna be the Spiderman?

Izadank420 said:

But my only question is, who's gonna be the Spiderman?

If Yamato's pegged to be Iron Man, we can have Fubuki... Unless they force-peg her into the Winter Soldier role.. XD

I choose the side with an obtainable Bismarck.

Enterprise as Captain America is expected. I always imagine her that.

Somehow the cover remind me of danganronpa​ debate scrum

GoldSaw said:

Okay so basically there's one lucky guy who is being fought over by two games casts? Well if we factor in all of Azur Lanes fleet, it wins hands down due to Kancalle being well, the reclusive Kancolle. Plus, Azur lane has Enterprise so it's going to be a massacre of their mostly Japanese fleet, which Azur Lane also has.

The two series have different settings so we can't even assume the same ship's KC and AL selves are as powerful.
If we just compare the games AL seems much stronger because they have a bunch of bullshit abilities, but we will have to wait for the anime to be sure.

TheMadsAdmiral said:

Enterprise as Captain America is expected. I always imagine her that.

Hail Hy Tennouheika banzai.

(Okay, wrong Enterprise, but still.)

Unbreakable said:

Yeah, it won't be like Touhou vs. Kantai Collection all over again.

... There was a Touhou vs Kancolle? What.

I actually more interested in Siren vs Abyssal

Crowbarius said:

... There was a Touhou vs Kancolle? What.

Yes, there was something like that around 4/5 years ago, when KC became popular thanks to Twitter. A lot of Touhou artists "switched" side to KC (Some like itomugi-kun ) and thus it resulted in some pictures where Touhou cast "declare war" on KC Cast. There was also at least 1 non-serious doujin where Sanae try to become a shipgirl herself (And fail).

From my perspective it was more a "funny" thing than a real war, but there must have been some toxicity arond the hardcores fans, especially on the Touhou side. Like some people were called "Traitors" for leaving Touhou to discover something else - Doesn't this remind you of some KC x AL shenanigans ? You can't compare Touhou and Kantai Collection, it's 2 differents universes. Unless you want to see who is the most american stereotype between Iowa and Clownpiece for example ?

Myschi said:

Yes, there was something like that around 4/5 years ago, when KC became popular thanks to Twitter. A lot of Touhou artists "switched" side to KC (Some like itomugi-kun ) and thus it resulted in some pictures where Touhou cast "declare war" on KC Cast. There was also at least 1 non-serious doujin where Sanae try to become a shipgirl herself (And fail).

From my perspective it was more a "funny" thing than a real war, but there must have been some toxicity arond the hardcores fans, especially on the Touhou side. Like some people were called "Traitors" for leaving Touhou to discover something else - Doesn't this remind you of some KC x AL shenanigans ? You can't compare Touhou and Kantai Collection, it's 2 differents universes. Unless you want to see who is the most american stereotype between Iowa and Clownpiece for example ?

i learned something similar from Guin Guin's Kancolle/Girl's Frontline FB Group. some AL fans sen them messages to stop releasing KC content since it's a dead game. their reply is nothing short of inspiring.

"a page runs on using a "Hype" will change theme all the time depending on what is the "Hot" game of the season. a page run with "Passion" is where all the people in charge share the same love for a series and will stay with it until it dies itself out."

No matter the outcome, there is one I am sure of : The Admiral is going suffer a great loss in resource.

astraympx said:

I actually more interested in Siren vs Abyssal

T H I S

jtxj93 said:

No matter the outcome, there is one I am sure of : The Admiral is going suffer a great loss in resource.

Not necessarily. It could count as PvP for both sides.

On a side note of TH vs KC. TH fanboys used to criticize KC:
- The girls are shameless semen demons, mass-produced fapping materials.
- The girls are soulless, have no personality and character development.
- The plot and setting are empty and half-assed.
- The game is boring farming and RNG slideshow.
- The fans are raging teenagers who think with their dicks.
Then when AL came out, KC fanboys called AL the exact same things (except for the RNG part).

astraympx said:

I actually more interested in Siren vs Abyssal

Siren seems to be much stronger. Their elite units have been playing around and never truly defeated, except by Key Point G.
They have energy weapons and dimensional technologies, probably on the same level, or even more advanced than Arpeggio of Blue Steel's Fog Fleet.

S.P.Requiem said:

On a side note of TH vs KC. TH fanboys used to criticize KC:
- The girls are shameless semen demons, mass-produced fapping materials.
- The girls are soulless, have no personality and character development.
- The plot and setting are empty and half-assed.
- The game is boring farming and RNG slideshow.
- The fans are raging teenagers who think with their dicks.
Then when AL came out, KC fanboys called AL the exact same things (except for the RNG part).

That's funny, as a Touhou fan who was slow to get on board the KC train, and resented its taking TH artists away from TH (until a critical mass departed, and I started getting into KC because Shino had started making Miss Akebono and the Shitty Admiral), I don't remember any of that...

The fact that the plot and setting are empty and half-assed has always been assumed to be one of the reasons both Touhou and KC are so popular for fan artists, as well. It seems bizarre that a Touhou fan would ever insult someone else's work for something they praise in their own works.

S.P.Requiem said:

On a side note of TH vs KC. TH fanboys used to criticize KC:
- The girls are shameless semen demons, mass-produced fapping materials.
- The girls are soulless, have no personality and character development.
- The plot and setting are empty and half-assed.
- The game is boring farming and RNG slideshow.
- The fans are raging teenagers who think with their dicks.
Then when AL came out, KC fanboys called AL the exact same things (except for the RNG part).

People are just salty something new came out and get more attention. Personally, I don't like PUBG since it took some of my H&G playing buddies and makes kids call any wooden stock rifle a K98. That's just how things go. I got used to it by now.

You know looking at this again, this artist did this on purpose. I mean look at the comparison as a whole. Azur Lane, not counting every other nations ships has 78 USS ships/subs that KC will never have, and Azur Lane isn't even done yet. The Navy who won the War is on Azur Lanes side and if you include every other ship from the rest of the factions in Azur Lane you'll see. This isn't fair on any level, as Kantai Collection would get obliterated from existence just from the sheer force of Azur Lanes cast, which includes most of it's own ships mind you. Even if it was only JP Navy+USS Navy(Azur Lane) VS JP Navy+USS Navy(Kantai Collection). Kantai would still get fucked into a black hole by Azur lane, as Kantai Collection has no USS ships. They got what? Like 5-6 US ships, none of which caused major damage during the war. Azur Lane also has the Brit ships. The artist should obviously know all of this and probably just wanted to start shit for kicks.

GoldSaw said:

The artist should obviously know all of this and probably just wanted to start shit for kicks.

Both sources (artist's twitter and dA page) don't get much attention nor they have sparked any serious debate at all. Imbalanced casts aside, the artist doesn't seem to have any ill intention beyond having fun drawing it.

Arguably, it doesn't fit the theme it pokes fun at, because the two sides were never originally one to begin with.

KC vs AL is basically the entirety of the Japanese combined fleet against a task force led by Enterprise.

I think we know how this ends.

NWSiaCB said:

The fact that the plot and setting are empty and half-assed has always been assumed to be one of the reasons both Touhou and KC are so popular for fan artists, as well. It seems bizarre that a Touhou fan would ever insult someone else's work for something they praise in their own works.

Touhou has always had a firm grasp of what Gensokyo is, as a place, what rules it follows, and how characters within it connect to each other. Meanwhile, different official Kancolle works can't even agree on whether Japan as a country actually exists in the setting.

But what I loved most Touhou was the way that it presented girls as something you could respect, relate to, or even aspire to. In a genre where girls are almost always presented as eye candy/sex fantasies, Touhou resisted that pull, even in fanwork - in the era when Touhou was top dog in the doujin scene, it also had one of the lowest proportions of lewd works compared to its rivals. The girls in canon Touhou were powerful and in charge, rather than being relegated to love interests, and I loved it when that was the crown jewel, the queen of the doujin scene. KanColle, by contrast, has its characters devote most of their attention to a faceless player self-insert, largely sacrificing any real character dynamics in order to facilitate your Isekai/Waifu fantasy. Not to mention that the popular "face" of Kancolle is to all appearances a 14-year old girl wearing a skirt so small you can constantly see both sides of her thong.

I could tell that Touhou was getting shaky and people were looking for something new well before KanColle became that thing, and if it had been something that had really been on Touhou's level in terms of treating its girls with respect as characters, I would have been thrilled by it. But KanColle feels like so much of a step backwards from Touhou in so many ways, and seeing Touhou fall to something that panders so much to the grossest parts of the anime fandom that Touhou largely stood against broke my heart.

You can't really compare Touhou and Kantai Collection.

One has several story line but was open to interpretation due to the fact it "accepts anything" into it. It has a wide range of characters with traits vary on different levels, making the possibilities of what can happen just keep expanding as different people come into play. The series it self has solid plot, but it's rather episodic, which leaves room for what happen between them, then it leaves out the more mundane scenes while still manages to build a solid enough of a character on well, every character, making it open to normal life. By the time it got big, it's already accepted that whatever goes. You can have the girls being raped senseless or having them abuse the one real guy we get to see while we can also see them fight epic battles or going through emotional moments, but with a turn around, you see them being all silly or even outright stupid.
You can say a good proportion of Touhou doujin is on the non-H ground, but that's doujin, books. Art works are also 2nd gen works, and I'm sure you can find more borderline stuff than you want to. Well, those are fans, because let's admit it, they got a fictional teacher of a text book series into the semen demon position, can't really say it's the source going.

On the other hand, Kantai Collection is clearly made for fantasies. They are made so they are attractive to guys (and girls) because the purpose it to to get tons of money as a game. It wasn't even that good a game to begin with. You lead a bunch of girls into fighting and defeat another bunch of monsters, again, and a gain. But what makes it first got attention (outside of marketing business) is that it got warships. Bunch of girls who are representation of WW2 warships. While not something new, it got better as the publisher went with historical references. That really stirs the mind of WW2 junkies among the Otaku. Then, due to the open of interpretation created by lack of plot line, it somehow repeats how Touhou got to where it is. But this time, you find more books on the H side because they were designed to be beautiful to begin with. Of course more people are going to fantasy about seeing those girls naked. Not helping with how the girls get their clothes torn as they are injured.

As you can see, the starting points are different. But they are both open to interpretation, one way, or another. That's how they keep blowing up in term of popularity. Or at least, stay popular for long, I mean, Touhou is 20+ and Kantai Collection is 5+ years. That's a long time for something stay in trend. Of course, Kantai Collection staying there is also because it gets another boost in marketing from time to time. But that alone doesn't make it great. It has a good base to start too.

In short, Touhou and Kantai Collection have commons, but they are just huge and not that relatable in many way to compare. I say we let it rests with comparison of any franchise with any other franchise since it can only drag on like a war.

XionGaTaosenai said:

Touhou has always had a firm grasp of what Gensokyo is, as a place, what rules it follows, and how characters within it connect to each other. Meanwhile, different official Kancolle works can't even agree on whether Japan as a country actually exists in the setting.

Not really... Gensokyo is anything from a happy-happy monsters-and-people-are-all-friends setting to Lovecraftian Horror where all humans but Reimu and Marisa are but mere snacks before the Great Old Ones, depending on the artist, which is just as much variance as KanColle has. The personalities of the characters are even more variable than even KanColle's, and even character designs morph. Just look at Patchouli, who can be anything from a "mukyu"ing goofball NEET to a dark edgelord sorceress masterminding the new guard resistance to some of the Great Old Ones, and from a flat loli to a mature titty monster or so thin her bones poke out to obese. While characters within a given game tend to form cliques within their own roster naturally, there is hardly any real definition of relationships beyond that. The 9 squad was never really official, for example, but mostly a fanon interpretation, and just how the Taoists and Buddhists get along, much less how Scarlet Devil Mansion gets along with Hakugyokuro is really up for grabs.

And that range of interpretation has always been Touhou's charm.

If there's anything that Touhou had that KanColle lacked when KanColle came on the scene, it was exactly those years of fanon built up around the characters (arguably annoyingly Flanderizing them in some cases, such as the PAD Chief, or "devourer of worlds" Yuyuko jokes, much less the whole Yukkuri thing), as opposed to KanColle's loose rules basically being virgin territory that artists would have to pioneer their own fanon interpretations into. (I.E. Nagamon.)

And while I'll agree that I'm not so much into the porn doujins, you're again comparing Touhou at its peak being a place of relatively few porn to the earliest awareness of KanColle, which was definitely related to Shimakaze... but that's somewhat apples to oranges. KanColle's fandom has largely forgotten Shimakaze now that it's mature, and it has a flood of non-porn material to browse now that it's at a mature state, just like Touhou did. So... what was Touhou like back when things were just picking up for Touhou, again? (Not that KanColle doesn't sexualize its characters to sometimes disturbing degrees considering the supposed age of some of them, but it's far from the worst in that regard, and many of the KanColle challengers are even more overtly sexualizing just to try to get some people to give them a glance.)

I mean, I totally get not liking having to learn a whole new fandom over from scratch, as part of the major appeal of a flexible universe like Touhou or KanColle is that you can tell an awfully wide range of stories using characters with fanon preconceptions of the characters already built up to skip most of the introductions, and already make you sympathetic to several of the characters. It's also why I, personally, just can't be assed to keep up with FGO's cascade of characters. But is the stuff you complain about really a problem of KanColle in particular, or the same problem that literally anything that would have been a major contender against Touhou would have done, anyway? Shimakaze was never a major character in KanColle, but she was the key to its early popularity because only overtly sexualized characters seemed to break through the barrier of getting enough artists drawing her to make KanColle a thing in the first place. Fubuki being the "Main Character (lol)" with her more "respectable" clothes was for a long time a joke because of her "potato" plainness. The thing that would rival Touhou was always going to have to be something that first broke in with visual impact, because it doesn't matter how rich and deep the lore is, people don't read that shit unless they already like the characters.

XionGaTaosenai said:

Touhou has always had a firm grasp of what Gensokyo is, as a place, what rules it follows, and how characters within it connect to each other. Meanwhile, different official Kancolle works can't even agree on whether Japan as a country actually exists in the setting.

Come to think of it, even AL has a more solid plot and setting than KC, even after 5 years of official works.
Just one example: How were the Kanmusu/KANSEN created?
KANSEN: By using Mental Cube, which is a technology leaked to humans by the Sirens on purpose.
Kanmusu: You can purify an Abyssal into a Kanmusu, but how does construction work? Do we turn a human girl into one, or make one with steel/oil/ammo/bauxite? Is it a pure sci-fi like AL and Arpeggio, or magitech like Strike Witches? We don't know the answer to any of these questions.

S.P.Requiem said:

Come to think of it, even AL has a more solid plot and setting than KC, even after 5 years of official works.
Just one example: How were the Kanmusu/KANSEN created?
KANSEN: By using Mental Cube, which is a technology leaked to humans by the Sirens on purpose.
Kanmusu: You can purify an Abyssal into a Kanmusu, but how does construction work? Do we turn a human girl into one, or make one with steel/oil/ammo/bauxite? Is it a pure sci-fi like AL and Arpeggio, or magitech like Strike Witches? We don't know the answer to any of these questions.

Yeah that's the problem with KanColle where it's players are forced to guess the game's setting etc. Hence over the 5 years there are several interpretations... Even the anime existed already, many don't agree with that.

S.P.Requiem said:

Come to think of it, even AL has a more solid plot and setting than KC, even after 5 years of official works.
Just one example: How were the Kanmusu/KANSEN created?
KANSEN: By using Mental Cube, which is a technology leaked to humans by the Sirens on purpose.
Kanmusu: You can purify an Abyssal into a Kanmusu, but how does construction work? Do we turn a human girl into one, or make one with steel/oil/ammo/bauxite? Is it a pure sci-fi like AL and Arpeggio, or magitech like Strike Witches? We don't know the answer to any of these questions.

Again, I think it's a positive to be able to have both Fantasy Comicalize's Saint Seiya reincarnations and also Sakura no Kantai's pure robots as equally plausible for any given fanwork. It's likewise because powers and the whole setting of Gensokyou is so vague where anything that has passed "into myth and legend" can appear there, letting you have fully Edo-era Japan in some works, or, say, Yuyuko gather Sega Dreamcasts, or a eulogy for a type of train in gensoukoumuten's works where modern technology constantly falls in (although after Subterranean Animism, some of the ambiguity was unfortunately killed off).

S.P.Requiem said:

Kanmusu: You can purify an Abyssal into a Kanmusu

Just saying, but this isn't confirmed either, at least, not game related (since Manga, novel and Anime are all considered not canon).

NWSiaCB said:

Not really... Gensokyo is anything from a happy-happy monsters-and-people-are-all-friends setting to Lovecraftian Horror where all humans but Reimu and Marisa are but mere snacks before the Great Old Ones, depending on the artist, which is just as much variance as KanColle has. The personalities of the characters are even more variable than even KanColle's, and even character designs morph. Just look at Patchouli, who can be anything from a "mukyu"ing goofball NEET to a dark edgelord sorceress masterminding the new guard resistance to some of the Great Old Ones, and from a flat loli to a mature titty monster or so thin her bones poke out to obese. While characters within a given game tend to form cliques within their own roster naturally, there is hardly any real definition of relationships beyond that. The 9 squad was never really official, for example, but mostly a fanon interpretation, and just how the Taoists and Buddhists get along, much less how Scarlet Devil Mansion gets along with Hakugyokuro is really up for grabs.

The guy you responded to was talking about official works, while you're talking mostly about fanon stuff. And in that respect you're correct, both franchises have incredibly varied interpretations depending on the author/artist. But Touhou does have an actual consistent canon set up by ZUN, which can be reliably referred to outside of some PC-98 contentions. I'm not well versed in official KC lore but apparently it constantly contradicts itself, or at the very least is somewhat inconsistent. Which is fine, really, there's enough fun with this kind of thing in making up interactions or recreating historical events in new, anime ways.

All the "official KC lore" is actually tidbits of dialogue and mission briefing given out during events. As for the official creation backstory? I don't think it ever got clarified.

Personally, I think this is one of KC's charm - the background story is so obscured, any fanon interpretation is equally valid as long as the story is convincing enough. Some of the Kanmusu themselves are also somewhat aware of the 4th wall (I'm looking at you, Makigumo and Musashi) and even pokes fun at modern (21st cy) trends. Heck, Akigumo even attends Comiket as a doujin circle.

The lore is so meta, it might as well be a parallel universe happening alongside our world in real time.

The officially published anthology series are basically commissioned works from various doujin artists. We have everyone from Mo to Munmu-san.

When i see this, my brain says this https://youtu.be/mGBzw1GznmA

Demundo said:

Just saying, but this isn't confirmed either, at least, not game related (since Manga, novel and Anime are all considered not canon).

Novels I know because they're more like authorized fan works, but since when was the anime not canon?

S.P.Requiem said:

Novels I know because they're more like authorized fan works, but since when was the anime not canon?

I think he mean the Anime is treated as 'official' as the Manga and Novel. Even Kisaragi in Anime has different personality than in Game.

AdventZero said:

The lore is so meta, it might as well be a parallel universe happening alongside our world in real time.

Basically my head canon for KC Lore. Every Doujin and Official work is happens in their alternate universe, with the Game serve as the baseline of each universe.

[deleted]

S.P.Requiem said:

On a side note of TH vs KC. TH fanboys used to criticize KC:
- The girls are shameless semen demons, mass-produced fapping materials.
- The girls are soulless, have no personality and character development.
- The plot and setting are empty and half-assed.
- The game is boring farming and RNG slideshow.
- The fans are raging teenagers who think with their dicks.
Then when AL came out, KC fanboys called AL the exact same things (except for the RNG part).

Siren seems to be much stronger. Their elite units have been playing around and never truly defeated, except by Key Point G.
They have energy weapons and dimensional technologies, probably on the same level, or even more advanced than Arpeggio of Blue Steel's Fog Fleet.

It didn't help that Shimakaze is generally a poster girl, and what XionGaTaosenai said has some weight (the usual KC shipgirl writing is a bit on the simple/"I'll protect you" side in general, and usually avoiding past traumas/enmities. Funny enough both KC and Touhou are besieged by FGO now (which could easily have most of that accusation list used against it), having made peace some time back (in part due to some of the "stolen" artists returning). Said artist "stealing" was mainly felt in areas of touhous that weren't super popular (thus a Marisa fan wouldn't see too much impact)

As for AL vs KC, I feel KC fans have gotten so caught up in things that they wound up overlooking the fact that KC isn't quite as innocent about fanservice or history fudging as it/the fans would like to think.

I remember a KC fan somewhere having a small fit over Tenryuu's sexy K2 where I pointed out fanservice is nothing new to KC, pointing out Shimakaze, Musashi (pre-k2 anyways), and the older Atago sisters. As far as the latter, for a supposedly historically accurate game, certain ships seem to get a favorable rendering than what their historical stats would suggest (not even touching the whole "Revisionist WW2" can of worms)

As for the list of accusations:
- No denying that AL is made with a more eye-catching leaning in general, but in terms of "mass produced" there's nothing that's on the level of Shibafu DDs (which I heard was due to Takana mistaking Shibafu's possible Fubuki design list as an entire shipline), or going back to FGO, Takeuchi's increasing Sabersameface.

- While there's a few simple characters (like Ark Royal), AL characters tend to have a decent deal of nuance, and as you increase their affection, they do develop/change some. And more and more have little sidequest lines fleshing out their characters even more. There's certainly no whitewashing (a number of former enemies still dislike each other and a number bear the trauma from their lives as ships)

- As others have mentioned, the general setting/plot is more solid in AL after a year than KC in 5. And the main story weakness of AL (the main level storyline stopping after world 3) seems to be set to be fixed in time.

- Skipping the gameplay bit, AL fans have taken to talking about history and how traits of the shipgirls are associated to it as well as others taken to look into history to learn the nods made in lines.

StriderTuna said:

what XionGaTaosenai said has some weight (the usual KC shipgirl writing is a bit on the simple/"I'll protect you" side in general, and usually avoiding past traumas/enmities.

How many kanmusus are we talking about here? The ones I can remember on top of my head are Satsuki, Hatsuzuki and Suzutsuki who do explicitly say that. Majority just say they'll protect the sea or the fleet (or both).

As for AL vs KC, I feel KC fans have gotten so caught up in things that they wound up overlooking the fact that KC isn't quite as innocent about fanservice or history fudging as it/the fans would like to think.

Aren't AL default CGs and buyable skins notorious for being racy? Atago, Prinz, Illustrious, Graf Zeppelin, Taihou just to name the few. Pretty upfront about that too with how they're displaying the ship girls' glorious assets. Pretty sure KC holds no candle against those.

I remember a KC fan somewhere having a small fit over Tenryuu's sexy K2 where I pointed out fanservice is nothing new to KC, pointing out Shimakaze, Musashi (pre-k2 anyways), and the older Atago sisters.

Weird. I thought that the consensus mostly leaned towards the off-proportion of Tenryuu K2, with smaller head (but thicker hair), somewhat longer lower body segment and thicker legs which some people like, but imho the result wasn't that good.

As far as the latter, for a supposedly historically accurate game, certain ships seem to get a favorable rendering than what their historical stats would suggest

Who are the 'certain ships' you're referring to? Those with "what-if" remodels?

No denying that AL is made with a more eye-catching leaning in general, but in terms of "mass produced" there's nothing that's on the level of Shibafu DDs (which I heard was due to Tanaka mistaking Shibafu's possible Fubuki design list as an entire shipline)

Shibafu is, as usual, a low-hanging fruit who'd get picked on anyway simply for drawing 'potato face', even if everything else was good. Never heard of Tanaka mistaking possible Fubuki designs as entire shipline. The guy could've asked for a band of Shimakaze-like perverts to fill the first five Fubuki-clas, but decided to just settle with one pervert as the only member of her class. It just sounds like a believable theory considering the copy-paste style people called Shibafu out for. Then again, this was back in 2013 where the game was expected to die in just one year so they kinda had the reason to churn out as many casts as they needed before that happened.

There's certainly no whitewashing (a number of former enemies still dislike each other and a number bear the trauma from their lives as ships)

...What does that even mean in this context? That the kanmusus should always keep their old grudges warm when there are no longer purposes nor meanings behind them now that they're kanmusus living in modern day setting?

CMIIW, but weren't ship girls in AL subjected to similar war twice? First the old WWII war as mere warships and second involving Azure vs Crimson faction but now as a ship girls with conscience? Of course they have valid reason to still dislike their former enemies who they just recently fought against maybe the second time for different reason.

As others have mentioned, the general setting/plot is more solid in AL after a year than KC in 5. And the main story weakness of AL (the main level storyline stopping after world 3) seems to be set to be fixed in time.

I've never heard that the lack of 'plot' was ever an issue in KC browser game before AL came to the picture as comparison in that department. That's strictly anime and its following movie.

CMIIW, but weren't ship girls in AL subjected to similar war twice? First the old WWII war as mere warships and second involving Azure vs Crimson faction but now as a ship girls with conscience? Of course they have valid reason to still dislike their former enemies who they just recently fought against maybe the second time for different reason.

I'll just try to answer this part.
Actually, we don't know.
Because AL world is not our world, so the "real" WW2 may not have happened at all.
The fact that there are several timelines in AL, and the one where you and your KANSENs exist is definitely not the "original" one, doesn't help clearing things up at all.
Basically we don't know if the KANSENs in the "original" world were created after the real WW2 happened, or it didn't happen at all and they just fought WW2-with-sirens as the original KANSENs.
Because either way the KANSENs in the commander's base (which are clones made from Mental Cubes) would inherit the same memories. They inherit those memories from the "original" KANSENs, not the ships. And the history of real ships is currently not observable.

Yeah AL's plot is actually very complicated and fucked up. The Akagi that launched Pearl Harbor in the main quest, the Akagi that you got from farming 3-4, and the Akagi that appeared in the Visitors Dyed in Red event, are three different entities. And I'm not even sure if they all exist in the same timeline or not.

Enterprise V.S Yamato? Nope, I'm hyped for Naka V.S San Diego, A once in a lifetime experience, two proud ship girls fighting for the title of No.1! Idol!

Frawnkenstein said:

How many kanmusus are we talking about here? The ones I can remember on top of my head are Satsuki, Hatsuzuki and Suzutsuki who do explicitly say that. Majority just say they'll protect the sea or the fleet (or both).

That doesn't refute my point of things being simplistic in terms of character writing; which is why the rather rare character with a strong personality stands out.

Aren't AL default CGs and buyable skins notorious for being racy? Atago, Prinz, Illustrious, Graf Zeppelin, Taihou just to name the few. Pretty upfront about that too with how they're displaying the ship girls' glorious assets. Pretty sure KC holds no candle against those.

I'd point out various damaged arts as well as some of Yoshinori's designs (one of KC's biggest draws was Shimakaze) I'd imagine had Atago/Takao's artist not basically just left, they would have gotten sexy additional cgs. But it's not like AL denies the fanservice part of its nature.

Weird. I thought that the consensus mostly leaned towards the off-proportion of Tenryuu K2, with smaller head (but thicker hair), somewhat longer lower body segment and thicker legs which some people like, but imho the result wasn't that good.

off proportion with Ayaki is nothing new; most just ignored it as the fanart rolled in (which more or less fixed such things); but yeah I did find a few people acting like KC never did any fanservice what so ever, such is the power of pretense that KC loyalists have awashed themselves in.

Who are the 'certain ships' you're referring to? Those with "what-if" remodels?

For starters, Akagi and Kaga ships who at Kai outdo just about every other normal ship's K2 (exception being the cranes and Hiryu in a couple of stats) Mix with the fact that they're not too hard to get...

Shibafu is, as usual, a low-hanging fruit who'd get picked on anyway simply for drawing 'potato face', even if everything else was good. Never heard of Tanaka mistaking possible Fubuki designs as entire shipline. The guy could've asked for a band of Shimakaze-like perverts to fill the first five Fubuki-clas, but decided to just settle with one pervert as the only member of her class. It just sounds like a believable theory considering the copy-paste style people called Shibafu out for. Then again, this was back in 2013 where the game was expected to die in just one year so they kinda had the reason to churn out as many casts as they needed before that happened.

At the same time, this copy/pasting has rendered the vast bulk of such shipgirls quite forgettable with Fubuki rising above due to her starter status and how hard she was pushed in the anime. Even other note worthy members like Ayanami take some effort to remember. Such a thing runs pretty hard against having a game that's note worthy. Such a thing would sooner doom a game than save it. Luckily for KC other artists did not do this (though Kujou's success with the Shirayatsu class comes mixed as I feel it wound up screwing over the artist that did Samidere and Suzukaze)

...What does that even mean in this context? That the kanmusus should always keep their old grudges warm when there are no longer purposes nor meanings behind them now that they're kanmusus living in modern day setting?

CMIIW, but weren't ship girls in AL subjected to similar war twice? First the old WWII war as mere warships and second involving Azure vs Crimson faction but now as a ship girls with conscience? Of course they have valid reason to still dislike their former enemies who they just recently fought against maybe the second time for different reason.

Grudges are not rational things, and given how bitter the US vs Japanese side of things were, it's not too likely that a ship like Sammy B would be all peachy with working with the ships that basically killed her and her friends. This even extends to even interservice stuff with things like IJN vs IJA tensions and carrier division elitism (the 5th CarDiv got often marginalized until the others got sunk) going overlooked. Something like KC Shoukaku talking about cheerfully working with her seniors can come off as unusual in light of this. I'm not saying shipgirls should fully give in to them as a whole, but rather acknowledge the fact.

The english and germans being more cordial and such is more reasonable.

This reminds me of the Fate series where more often than not old grudges can affect a present grail war and in FGO, various Servants will voice their hesitation to work along side an old foe, either from their time, or from a past Grail war. That and KCQ has colored my view on things.

It's pretty clear that the feelings of things stem from the first such war (due to the time muckery Sirens have inflicted, hard to tell what that war was)

I've never heard that the lack of 'plot' was ever an issue in KC browser game before AL came to the picture as comparison in that department. That's strictly anime and its following movie.

You must have been around loyalists as it's just one of many things that wore at some players that eventually caused them to quit/hop on AL. And at first it likely wasn't an issue but as the novelity wore off, and the implications of WW2 revisionism started rearing their head, it had people wondering more about things. It's not like it was a shmup or beat'em up where the plot is just an excuse.

StriderTuna said:

That doesn't refute my point of things being simplistic in terms of character writing;

For destroyers, desire to protect come naturally because that's their duty (to put themselves in harms way to guard bigger more precious ships) not just as unit but also as kanmusu. They're still distinctive enough not to have just that going on for them. Even then their desire to protect play out differently:

• Satsuki the tomboy only declares her protection after she's strong enough to do so, but without denying the proposition that she too can be the one needs protecting.
• Hatsuzuki's approach is by fighting to the bitter end but without any intention of throwing her life as kanmusu away so easily.
• Suzutsuki's is by not leaving the player's side. Because of her duty kanmusu is to face danger, it becomes more about protecting the promise that she'll always return, no matter what it takes.
• Yukikaze, which I forgot to mention is embodiment of dark irony whose blinding optimism can be easily interpreted as her repressing her traumatic memories to the point of insanity.

Simplistic in the end of the day means that there's more room for fandom to work with. It has always been this way and it worked.

which is why the rather rare character with a strong personality stands out.

That's not always the case, especially for mainstream moe fans whose first concern have always been kanmusus' appearance and character second. Take Nelson for example. Shortly after her first reveal, there were plenty who simply dissed her from appearance alone because she didn't look as attractive as her AL counterpart who (CMIIW) behaves exactly as she looks; an archetypical twin-tailed tsundere.

I'd point out various damaged arts as well as some of Yoshinori's designs (one of KC's biggest draws was Shimakaze)

Damaged CG in Kancolle is just an indicator that the unit has taken enough damage that the game feels the need remind us to proceed carefully or retreat if needed. They look like that to catch the player's attention. Even then they generally try to incorporate historical damages that the ship counterparts suffered into the damaged CGs. Then again we're comparing a mainstream smartphone game anyone owning one can play vs niche simulation game with no English version hosted at R-18 site with restrictive access.

As lewd as some of the damaged CGs are, Kancolle the game is not advertising them as selling point. Never was. One can only find out about them by actively trying to do so from third party sources. Meanwhile AL actively advertises their game through various media and thanks to that, anyone can easily run into any racy CGs the game has to offer, even from promotional arts alone.

Talk about Shimakaze, I honestly can't remember when was the last time she was involved in live event promotional arts while wearing her default, perverted outfit. See what I mean here.

I'd imagine had Atago/Takao's artist not basically just left, they would have gotten sexy additional cgs.

Their just-as-sexy little sisters Choukai and Maya might have gotten Kai Ni with rather skimpy outfits, but other than that, they got nothing of the sort despite having more active artist.

But it's not like AL denies the fanservice part of its nature.

Kancolle as a franchise doesn't deny its own either, though? It's simply trying to 'mature' from being a franchise known for its Shimakaze and its erotic damaged CGs (which tbh, are not that outrageous compared to the likes of Senran Kagura) to something more endearing even to the non-players, which Tanaka has been attempting to do with live events/collabs, without exploiting the erotic aspect of his game.

Take the recent popular mascot character, Gambier Bay, as example. If Tanaka had wanted to sell the eroticism, Gambier Bay could have been in nothing but immodest clothes, showing off cleavage at every opportunity. We're not even talking about Kancolle's infamous doujin queen, Kashima. If you check her official seasonal CGs, you can see for yourself and decide whether the Devs have been trying to sexualize her further to just pander to the base or not.

but yeah I did find a few people acting like KC never did any fanservice what so ever, such is the power of pretense that KC loyalists have awashed themselves in.

I find that hard to believe. You sure you were not being trolled?

From what I see it, the game has been showing trend to tone down the erotic fanservices whenever it can, instead of escalating them further. See I-8's seasonal damaged CG for example

You can also see how they treat Nagato Kai Ni, Musashi Kai Ni and some other kanmusus' recent CGs. Not saying that there weren't exceptions like Isokaze, Urakaze, Hamakaze and Tanikaze's recent Kai variants. Arguably, the lewdest examples one can think of actually belong to their artist, Parsley.

Personally my main argument is AL putting their erotic fanservice in front row for everyone to see, while KC in back row for those interested to find out. The best comparison I can think of is AL Albacore default cg vs Ro-500's damaged cg. Arguably they're equally as erotic, but the latter doesn't shove it to your face everytime you set her as secretary unless you keep her in damaged state forever, which is honestly creepy.

For starters, Akagi and Kaga ships who at Kai outdo just about every other normal ship's K2 (exception being the cranes and Hiryu in a couple of stats) Mix with the fact that they're not too hard to get...

Are you comparing them only within carrier lines or across ship types?

It depends, really. Akagi and especially Kaga have their best use in fight for high air superiority requirement, but when you need them to also attack reliably with aircraft cut-in, in the face of multiple waves of Tsu-class AA cut-in no less, their 20-slots of attack planes have greater risk of getting wiped out completely compared to even Cranes Kai who have each 24-slots for first, second and third row. When they have no plane left, their superior stat in shelling power (compared to Cranes Kai) becomes absolutely meaningless. Akagi, being the easiest to get of the two was meant to help 'carrying' new players until they can invest on the Dragons K2 (for their planes) and the Cranes K2 (high pay-off).

Intrepid Kai already surpasses both of them full stop, but since people shit on her a lot, I don't know if there were that many who tried to get her and/or even kept her around.

At the same time, this copy/pasting has rendered the vast bulk of such shipgirls quite forgettable with Fubuki rising above due to her starter status and how hard she was pushed in the anime.

Even so, some still remember those 'forgettables' fondly to this day, still actively drawing fanarts of them despite how little to no attention the Devs themselves have given the characters throughout the years.

Admittedly, direction of the anime was horrible but Fubuki has always been the designated main character of the franchise, whether we like it or not. It's paying respect to Fubuki's 4-koma manga running alongside the game from the beginning.

Even other note worthy members like Ayanami take some effort to remember.

Prior Kai Ni, maybe.

Such a thing runs pretty hard against having a game that's note worthy. Such a thing would sooner doom a game than save it.

They said Iowa was the end of Kancolle, then moved the goalpost after Intrepid. Now I'll save you the trouble by giving you another examples in form of Taiyou and Shin'you who people have been accusing of being copy-paste of each other, as if those two will doom Kancolle somehow.

Luckily for KC other artists did not do this (though Kujou's success with the Shirayatsu class comes mixed as I feel it wound up screwing over the artist that did Samidere and Suzukaze)

Sure.

Grudges are not rational things, and given how bitter the US vs Japanese side of things were, it's not too likely that a ship like Sammy B would be all peachy with working with the ships that basically killed her and her friends.

Sammy's case is, to be fair, still widely open to interpretation. There's no line referencing that she's getting along too well with Chikuma or Tone for example. If someone decides that their fanon is for her to be adversarial to them then they're free to do so. Her core interaction is with the player and fellow USN ships like Gamby. She does have things to say to Sendai for being noisy at night, just like other kanmusus.

In current context, Iowa, the first USN ship implemented in the game, received help from players' fleet to deal with Central Princess. Insisting that Iowa should have been antagonistic to former IJN ships after all that would paint her as ungrateful jerk, especially when later sha also received another help to rescue Saratoga and Gambier Bay from Abyssal Fleet's clutch.

I find Gambier Bay to be an amusing example. She's always scared that anyone from players' side (majority being former IJN) would shoot her. Many people referenced back to her sinking history, which was fine and all. Then you remember that getting Gamby back to her senses when she was under Abyssal's influence did in fact involve the players' fleet (including her fellow USN ships already around) shooting her with everything they have. Even the person herself was goading and taunting the players' fleet to do it.

This even extends to even interservice stuff with things like IJN vs IJA tensions and carrier division elitism (the 5th CarDiv got often marginalized until the others got sunk) going overlooked. Something like KC Shoukaku talking about cheerfully working with her seniors can come off as unusual in light of this. I'm not saying shipgirls should fully give in to them as a whole, but rather acknowledge the fact.

Akitsu Maru (still) doesn't seem to have any interaction with even one kanmusu from former-IJN side, who welcome kanmusus from overseas with open hands. That's as isolated as she can get.

Even if Shoukaku doesn't like Kaga, I simply cannot imagine her disliking Akagi as well who, has never shown hostility to anyone. Kaga and Zuikaku already represent the pettiness of each side, but even then they're not in terms so bad they can never reconcile like the old factions they represent. Overplaying this would only imply that the players commanding the two are the ones who allow this charade to continue to worsen.

This reminds me of the Fate series where more often than not old grudges can affect a present grail war and in FGO, various Servants will voice their hesitation to work along side an old foe, either from their time, or from a past Grail war. That and KCQ has colored my view on things.

Unlike kanmusus who're based on inanimate objects (warships), Servants are based on heroic/legendary/mythical whatever figures with conscience. Their reluctance to fight alongside former enemies is highly justified because whatever led to the dispute was of their own doing. Technically, warships that the Kanmusus are based on had no such luxury as mere weapons of war. They weren't even alive nor had any conscience.

You must have been around loyalists as it's just one of many things that wore at some players that eventually caused them to quit/hop on AL. And at first it likely wasn't an issue but as the novelity wore off...

You think? Things most frequent to complain about:

• Potatoes
• RNG being RNG
• Lack of QoL updates
• Gameplay mechanics being 'outdated'
• Lack of foreign, especially USN ships
• Lack of English release
• Not being newbie-friendly

But plot? It just sounds like they simply wanted to quit the game regardless and any excuse would do. I wonder if it's so difficult for those people to admit that they moved to AL for the waifus?

...and the implications of WW2 revisionism started rearing their head, it had people wondering more about things.

So we meet again, WWII Revisionism conspiracy theory.. What year is this, 2015? Does it still count as one if we're playing as JMSDF?

It's not like it was a shmup or beat'em up where the plot is just an excuse.

It's a naval warfare simulation game. The plot is simply to defeat the enemy dubbed as "Abyssal Fleet"

The relationship between the two games is less a Civil War and more a Crisis on Infinite Earths.

AkaneYakumo said:

The relationship between the two games is less a Civil War and more a Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Your a smart one.

ryoka13 said:

I choose the side with an obtainable Bismarck.

Azur Lane will be receiving Bismarck this May.

I just came here for the comments.

...I'm just here because I hoped someone would have drawn out Enty x Yamato pairing from "Things that involve shipgirls that are no longer allowed"... this saddens me greatly.

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