Well it looks like I was correct on Flan not getting through to that frog. Well, looks like Meiling gave her the thumbs up to either one, to let her know she's okay. Two, to continue fighting. Or three, was this all a ruse to lower that frog's guard.
Steak said: This is bull. Sanae is nearly killed and the heels are made into the underdogs.
Ever hear of "mama bear syndrome"? And for the record, MEILING isn't a heel, nor was flan intentionally a heel. Certainly not on the level of Youmu and Reisen.
Byakugan01 said: Ever hear of "mama bear syndrome"? And for the record, MEILING isn't a heel, nor was flan intentionally a heel. Certainly not on the level of Youmu and Reisen.
Yeah what happened with Flan and Sanae was what would have happened to a normal wrestler fighting a heavy weight with the agility and speed of a high flyer. Yeah it doesn't end well for the normal wrestler at all. Both their styles were straight up and clean. If anyone were Heels, it'd be Sanae and especially Suwako for the dirty tricks they used.
Ok, i can already see how the rest of this is going to play out, flans going to do an attack and Meiling using the last of her strength is going to grab Suwako by the ankle, keeping her in place, then Sanae will enter and distract Suwako more until Flan lands the attack, the pin and the win.
Suwako snaps Meiling up and uses her as a shield. Since she is technically killed by her partner, this doesn't result in Suwako being disqualified. Flan, shocked by the horrible thing she's done, is easy pickings for an enraged Suwako and is beaten and pinned down.
.... I always thought the Moriya team was the heel. Even from their fight with Yuka, they struck me as the heel team. Sure, Sanae and Suwako play the Beauty is Good card, but I never saw them as anything but heel
Steak said: Suwako snaps Meiling up and uses her as a shield. Since she is technically killed by her partner, this doesn't result in Suwako being disqualified. Flan, shocked by the horrible thing she's done, is easy pickings for an enraged Suwako and is beaten and pinned down.
Heh.
Looks like I was wrong on the "Suwako (intentionally) teaching Flan hurting other people is BAD" theory. It's amazing to me that Meiling's still in this, I hope she doesn't get hurt further creating an opening for Flan.
Moriya Team isn't heel, Suwako goin heel out of a mixture of anger and war goddess pleasure.
You only call them heel because non of you liked Yuuka being defeated for not paying attention and going bully tsundere with Cirno and Daiyosei.
This fight lacks of Heel teams, as much, a member of a team is going heel out of anger and war mindset.
So seriously drop the bias here, there won't be a satisfactory outcome until things chill down and get civil again. No matter the winner, the victory would be bleh, if they win in this circunstances.
Mettaur said: Moriya Team isn't heel, Suwako goin heel out of a mixture of anger and war goddess pleasure.
Sanae no, Suwako yes. She has been fighting dirty and is intentionally inflicting pain for her own pleasure. You can't spin that. There is always the good guys and the bad guys. Atm that is the Moriya team.
I disagree that it's unnecessary. Suwako was willing to let Meiling go and quickly end the match, but she showed too much defiance for one of such low station. Not tearing her apart after such a flagrant act of blasphemy would go against what it means to be a god.
dandan said: .... I always thought the Moriya team was the heel. Even from their fight with Yuka, they struck me as the heel team. Sure, Sanae and Suwako play the Beauty is Good card, but I never saw them as anything but heel
FYI, Yuukarin was the heel in that fight, what with using Cirno just as a tool to weaken suwako through cold, and going for bloodshed and pain instead of simply trying to end it. And "uneccessary crulety" is Yuukarin's middle, first, and last name. Now, I love Yuuka just as much as the next person, but you can't deny she was the heel in that fight.
Steak said: I disagree that it's unnecessary. Suwako was willing to let Meiling go and quickly end the match, but she showed too much defiance for one of such low station. Not tearing her apart after such a flagrant act of blasphemy would go against what it means to be a god.
Meiling needs to be taught a lesson.
Meiling put ALL of her power into that punch. And her knee was already broken. So she can't fight back and has an injury that, as it is, will take her some time to recover from. As such, Suwako's continued battering of her is both uneccessarily cruel and unsportmanlike, about as much as Yuuka was.
Obviously she has no appreciation or concern for anything other than her masters. She's completely expendable. Killing her would actually be doing her a favor. She could even take it as a compliment.
If that were true, Flan would not be have been crying and trying to stop Suwako from hurting Meiling. Even Kanako said that Suwako needs to be stopped. Poor Sanae this freak out from Suwako may destroy all the faith she has gathered.
Steak said: Obviously she has no appreciation or concern for anything other than her masters. She's completely expendable. Killing her would actually be doing her a favor. She could even take it as a compliment.
You know Steak even though in most circles Meiling is seen and often regarded to as expendable and pretty much the blunt of many painful jokes (whenever the SDM crew is around) does not mean that she is, considering how the author made this otherwise Meiling would have been put off earlier into the fight.
Despite all the fanon that's been made with Meiling being the butt monkey, she's more valuable than that; in 12.3, the lines between Her and Remilia hint at things between them being very friendly.
Siegmund said: Sanae no, Suwako yes. She has been fighting dirty and is intentionally inflicting pain for her own pleasure. You can't spin that. There is always the good guys and the bad guys. Atm that is the Moriya team.
Sanae AND Suwako are the Moriya Team, the same way Cirno and Yuuka were a team, and while Yuuka may had showed Hell tendencies her team wasn't exactly heel. In Wrestling is not always about heels and faces, sometimes you have more neutral sectors or face teams with a member that could go heel without the watching eye of the most "Face" member of the team.
Individuals don't define the stand of a team, Now Suwako is being heelish, but that's because there isn't a Sanae there to return her senses and chasticy her, that's the Moriya Team, Sanae and Suwako, not "Suwako Alone", now it's like if Moriya Team was remplaced by Suwako soloing.
A Heel team is a team that clearly shows heel tendencies as whole, like Reisen's team.
It's like with Kaguya vs Mokou, i may not like Kaguya "Crowd lying" tactic and "demonizing Mokou" move but, regardles of the crowd, we know that both Kaguya's team and Mokou's team weren't heels
Mettaur said: Sanae AND Suwako are the Moriya Team, the same way Cirno and Yuuka were a team, and while Yuuka may had showed Hell tendencies her team wasn't exactly heel.
/snip
It's like with Kaguya vs Mokou, i may not like Kaguya "Crowd lying" tactic and "demonizing Mokou" move but, regardles of the crowd, we know that both Kaguya's team and Mokou's team weren't heels
Actually considering Sanae is not above playing dirty they are a heel team.
Sanae is about to redeem herself, Suwako is just being a putz and making a shady team down right hated.
It does not require both team members to bring a team down and make them hated. It never has. You feel kinda sorry for the "good guy" on the team after they get their asses handed to them but the team were still the "bad guys".
Team faith atm are the bad guys. The fact most of the people commenting don't like them is proof of that. Arguing semantics when the crowd is saying down with Moriya.
Also as I said there is always the good guys and the bad guys. You have to root for someone. Even if they both start out good one will turn bad during the match. This never changes.
The Moriya team are the bad guys, nothing is gonna change that. How you feel about the individual members of the team might change but in the end, they still are the bad guys.
A lot of people seem to be saying that Suwako's gone way overboard especially given the fact that Sanae seems to be alright. But from I remember they never announced said fact, the only people who have any idea are the ones in the infirmary and the readers.
From Suwako's point of view her last living descendant was from how she looked at the time, badly if not potentially fatally injured by somebody who's one only response was that it was good thing that they weren't dead at that moment as that would me that they wouldn't be able to play anymore.
Now consider how'd you react toward somebody who apparently hurt a dearly loved family member and whose only response was on how it might ruin their fun.
...Though frankly despite that I'm currently hoping for Flan to smack Suwako around some as Meiling happens to be one of my favorite characters.
Byakugan01 said: FYI, Yuukarin was the heel in that fight, what with using Cirno just as a tool to weaken suwako through cold, and going for bloodshed and pain instead of simply trying to end it. And "uneccessary crulety" is Yuukarin's middle, first, and last name. Now, I love Yuuka just as much as the next person, but you can't deny she was the heel in that fight.
This.
Byakugan01 said: Meiling put ALL of her power into that punch. And her knee was already broken. So she can't fight back and has an injury that, as it is, will take her some time to recover from. As such, Suwako's continued battering of her is both uneccessarily cruel and unsportmanlike, about as much as Yuuka was.
Why are you comparing it to Yuuka?
The beating of Sanae was clearly one-sided, but intentionally under the line of life-threatening damage, just to make her give up, seeing all the blood and not having a single second to catch a breath. On the other side, Suwako doesn't give a shit.
If Yuuka would be a Nazi execution squad with rifles and a coup de grace to the head, Suwako is a Mujahideen slowly haggling a prisoner's neck with a rusty knife, enjoying the squealing and death rattle.
Justy said: The beating of Sanae was clearly one-sided, but intentionally under the line of life-threatening damage, just to make her give up, seeing all the blood and not having a single second to catch a breath. On the other side, Suwako doesn't give a shit.
If Yuuka would be a Nazi execution squad with rifles and a coup de grace to the head, Suwako is a Mujahideen slowly haggling a prisoner's neck with a rusty knife, enjoying the squealing and death rattle.
No. Yuuka is a sadist, period. Suwako is berserk. Neither one is better than the other.
Steak said: I disagree that it's unnecessary. Suwako was willing to let Meiling go and quickly end the match, but she showed too much defiance for one of such low station. Not tearing her apart after such a flagrant act of blasphemy would go against what it means to be a god.
Suwako needs to be taught a lesson.
Corrected
If Suwako kills Meiling she might find out that even a goddess can die when Flan goes eva 01 berserk on her.
mangadaemon said: Now consider how'd you react toward somebody who apparently hurt a dearly loved family member and whose only response was on how it might ruin their fun.
Flan yes Meiling no. Suwako was hurting Flan for revenge fair enough. On the other hand Meiling is being hurt because Suwako is enjoying it. She doesn't give a fig about Flan at this point, she is just out to break Meiling, and break hew in a slow and painful way.
As someone who loves Suwako, can't say I really like what she's become either. But putting myself in her shoes, I can kinda understand how the bit with Sanae could push Suwako to her initial state. But yeah, she's let the bloodlust get to her. Original intent be damned.
At first I thought Suwako was doing what she had to in order to hold her own against two opponents, one being another EX boss. The math would suggest Suwako's just plain outpowered otherwise.
But now I'm wondering if perhaps Suwako had the power to defeat Flan and Meiling on her own to begin with.
Suwako was originally justified for wailing on Flandre. Frankly, Flandre had it coming, but after beating Flandre and Meiling down she made her point and has succumbed to bloodlust, so at this point she's in the wrong. Team Flandre/Meiling started off the heels, but now Suwako has cast her own team in that role by going berzerk.
As for Yuuka, Sanae fans need to get over it. Yuuka was just beating her down fair and square until Sanae started talking trash about how a living god such as herself could never lose to a mere youkai. If she hadn't started popping sh*t, Yuuka would have just beat her down and been done with it. In fact, yuuka was even a little impressed until Sanae insulted her. Instead, Yuuka decided to crush her for the sake of her wounded pride and Sanae and Suwako refused to quit and then lucked out. Using Cirno like that was dirty but Yuuka herself was surpised by how easily Cirno died, so the freezing and weakening Suwako thing wasn't actually intentional, she just took advantage of it.
Frankly, Sanae and Suwako's character portrayal here is actually pretty close to canon. Its canon that the Moriya crew are opportunistic jerks who look down on others and whose primary concern is themselves (like many Gensokyo characters and groups actually). Sanae, especially, thinks she's the coolest thing since the other side of the pillow, though she's slowly redeeming herself in this doujin series, meanwhile Suwako is now regressing to her worst days before Kanako beat some humility into her.
...you're still inexperienced in its use.Even though you have so much power...Now get off of me!Aaaaa...She's gonna kill Meiling!Flan:
Meiling!Flan:
That's the "Go For It" signal.Flan:
Why?*Bam*Waaaaaaaa...*throw*Waaaaaaaa...Haa...Haa...Episode 452: Sign
*She can do it. She believes in doing her best.
From the Artist's Pixiv pageBelieve In and Muster One's WillpowerWhat do I do...?What do I do...?But I believe in her!...I'm sure Meiling has something in mind!Oooooooooooh...Flan:
That move didn't work last time...*THUMP*
Jumping NoiseAkyuu:
Her movement was like Aikido, right?Oh, my!Player Flan has flown off!
