Doesn't seem like Mima is possessing Marisa. Maybe Marisa was just hanging out with Mima too much.

Thanks for the warp speed translation this is getting good.

So i was right, Marisa is just finally becoming more and more like her master.

Raigeki said:
So i was right, Marisa is just finally becoming more and more like her master.

I approve of this.

What's funny is that Marisa has been one of those people making weaklings feel helpless.

Then isn't it the time for the strong team to get serious?

randomness said:
What's funny is that Marisa has been one of those people making weaklings feel helpless.

The people of Gensokyo have developed a remarkable resistance to irony.

So then... Who agrees or disagrees with Marisa?

SpecterVonBaren said:
So then... Who agrees or disagrees with Marisa?

Disagree in the fact they chose to enter. Meiling was clearly outclassed by Suwako but she didn't use any cheap tricks.

SpecterVonBaren said:
So then... Who agrees or disagrees with Marisa?

Sugar coated bullshit is still bullshit. When I accept a challenge to a fist fight, I don't shoot the opponent in the goddamn face just because he's clearly stronger.

Heparine said:
Sugar coated bullshit is still bullshit. When I accept a challenge to a fist fight, I don't shoot the opponent in the goddamn face just because he's clearly stronger.

This right here.

Then again, Remilia challenged them to a 2 vs 4, and said "We shall accept everything from you girls!". If you offer someone the chance to shoot you in the face and kick you when you're down, you have no right to start complaining when it actually happens.

SpecterVonBaren said:
So then... Who agrees or disagrees with Marisa?

If the aim of the whole competition was to have everything equal, I'm sure Yukari could have thought of a limiter that would put everyone on even ground (in terms of physical strength). The only disparity allowed should be technique and experience.

But since this is mimicking a manga and not a serious competition by any stretch of the mind, I think Marisa has a point in saying that evening the odds is no bad thing. Especially when your opponents could normally dispose of you with a flick of their wrist, otherwise. Not to mention that all of those pieces of equipment they are using were formally approved by Yukari herself, and the use of those tools were not contested by team Reimulia.

For me personally, I think there are merits with either line of thinking. To hold your honor and fight your best despite your weakness is admirable and can be really rewarding if it works but on the other hand, in a fight you should use every advantage you have to beat your opponent, to some, honor means nothing if you die because of it (In this case, lose). I remember someone once saying the highest honor you can give your opponent is not holding back and using every advantage you have.

If I were in the situation I would go the honorable route but as for whether it would be the right decision, I don't know. But the fact remains that if Kirisame Familiar hadn't done what they're doing now then they would lose badly like Rabbit/Ghost Union did once they lost the element of surprise. Add to this that this comes from Kinnikuman which had crazy stuff from competitors all the time...

But then again, despite me seeing the logic in Kirisame Familiar's tactics, I still utterly hate tactics that exploit and opponents emotions like was done in the Pyramid Volcano V.S. Hourai Master/Servant Combination and the Higan Judgment V.S. Eternal Rivals matches.... apparently I hate Kaguya (Scratches head).

Heparine said:
Sugar coated bullshit is still bullshit. When I accept a challenge to a fist fight, I don't shoot the opponent in the goddamn face just because he's clearly stronger.

Yeah, except for the fact that you'd be fighting another human, presumably. In Touhou, your power is, almost exclusively, determined by your "race". You're born as powerful as you're going to be, virtually 100% of the time.

An Oni will always be stronger than any other race. A Vampire will always be stronger than anything but an Oni. Youkai like Yuuka, who transcend their heritage to be mightier than you would expect, are as rare as a drop of water in a great desert.

Even Reimu fits into this paradigm, as she is who she is due to the fact that she was born to be the Hakurei Miko. Marisa could train for her entire life, while Reimu did nothing at all, and they wouldn't be anywhere near each other in anything other than, MAYBE, danmaku shooting GAMES. In a real fight? A "fair" fight? No chance.

This is why comparing it to real life and a "fair fight" amongst actual non-magically-powered humans falls flat. Gensokyou is an inherently non-egalitarian world. You're either born mighty, or you'll be victimized, one way or another, for your entire life, no matter how much you train or how hard you try.

Mystia will never be able to fight back against Yuyuko. Momiji has to take Yuuka's bullying with a smile. If you're Parsee, all you'll get for trying to stand up for your friends against the organizing committee is a humiliating defeat, ground into the dirt...unless someone that was born more powerful rescues you.

In a world like that? Hell yes, cheating is a valid and necessary tactic even in an organized fighting tournament. Arguing that it's immoral is little different than arguing that the weak deserve to be crushed and should simply shut up and stay out of sight as they let the strong do whatever they want. Forever.

JakeBob said:
This right here.

Then again, Remilia challenged them to a 2 vs 4, and said "We shall accept everything from you girls!". If you offer someone the chance to shoot you in the face and kick you when you're down, you have no right to start complaining when it actually happens.

That's tbe biggest mistake Red 75% made: They gave their foes an inch, particularly with Marisa among them. Naturally they took a mile.

Of course, this is a sporting event, not a life or death struggle. And cheating tends to be frowned upon in sporting events. The only thing Marisa has on the line is pride.

JakeBob said:
Then again, Remilia challenged them to a 2 vs 4, and said "We shall accept everything from you girls!". If you offer someone the chance to shoot you in the face and kick you when you're down, you have no right to start complaining when it actually happens.

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen Reimu or Remilia bitch about what's happening at all, rather the opposite - they were still encouraging them only a while ago. The only thing I was commenting on was Marisa's speech being full of shit.

EimiYoshikawa said:
In a world like that? Hell yes, cheating is a valid and necessary tactic even in an organized fighting tournament. Arguing that it's immoral is little different than arguing that the weak deserve to be crushed and should simply shut up and stay out of sight as they let the strong do whatever they want. Forever.

What the hell are you smoking? It's a sports tournament. Nobody forced them to enter and nothing more than their pride is on the stake. I'm on a completely different level than, say, Ussain Bolt. That's why I don't challenge him to a 100m sprint race - I would have to ride a bike to even stand a chance, and if I won that way, it would feel awful. This is also a sports tournament, cheating just because you can't win by normal means is still pathetic. Yes, even if your opponent encourages you to do it.

I suddenly really want Kirisame Familiar to win this round, I keep hearing complaints about there not being enough "heels" in this comic and with the animosity they're generating right now I think we have some winners (For heels) here.

randomness said:
What's funny is that Marisa has been one of those people making weaklings feel helpless.

It's even funnier when you remember that Remi and Reimu spent the previous round beating down a team that had already been set up as embodying oppression by the strong. (Which Mystia is so close to realizing. C'mon, you can do it!)

And for even more bonus hilarity, Marisa is creating a painful memory of being powerless right now for her opponent.

JakeBob said:
Then again, Remilia challenged them to a 2 vs 4, and said "We shall accept everything from you girls!". If you offer someone the chance to shoot you in the face and kick you when you're down, you have no right to start complaining when it actually happens.

Perhaps, but I think what Marisa was specifically doing when we saw the audience start getting unhappy (and is doing now) falls under "letter versus spirit." Remi approved the use of various weapons against herself, and while it may fit into her wording, I'm not sure using them on the considerably less invincible Reimu was intended to be part of the deal.

Andulusi said:

Perhaps, but I think what Marisa was specifically doing when we saw the audience start getting unhappy (and is doing now) falls under "letter versus spirit." Remi approved the use of various weapons against herself, and while it may fit into her wording, I'm not sure using them on the considerably less invincible Reimu was intended to be part of the deal.

Then again, so far all they've done to Reimu is toss her around and currently swinging her around in the air, they haven't really done that much to her yet. In fact Remilia hasn't been hit that badly either despite her getting the worst of it, so far all they seem to have done is pissed her off.

SpecterVonBaren said:
Then again, so far all they've done to Reimu is toss her around and currently swinging her around in the air, they haven't really done that much to her yet. In fact Remilia hasn't been hit that badly either despite her getting the worst of it, so far all they seem to have done is pissed her off.

Such things tend to screw up a person's balance and their tactic before the massive cheatfest was grapplng. If you have a screwed up sense of balance, it'll be hard to get out of a hold.

In conclusion: What Marisa said is true in real life where there is life to bet on the front line, such as self-defence.

But Marisa is definitely wrong when it comes to an even where fairness and honor are a must, such as in sport tournament.

Love's in grey area though. And Marisa owns the love-colored magic.

It is a wrestling competition right?

There are face and heel, and sometimes, there are tricky face. Marisa is a tricky face.
In fact, this remind me of Eddie Guerrero Vs Brock Lesnar.

This is not a fair fight, this is touhou world, there are no equality in this world. Even if fan want to make some character like Meiling or Letty like "HEY! THEY ARE SUPER POWERFUL IN FACT". It is still inequal.

Remilia just have the stupidity to make an advantage for Marisa (I think she wanted this in fact, but it is stupid, I think it is direspectful to say "year, I know you are weak so I will take the cocky character and say something that will help you".) and Marisa take it.

I want also to remind you that in wrestling, cheating is a thing 'normal'. There also No DQ match, etc. So, people saying "It is cheating", I want to say "IT IS A WRESTLING COMPETITION GOD DAMN IT, OF COURSE THEY CAN CHEAT."

it would be interesting to note that Remilia "giving an advantage" to the characters may be more because she's canonically childish (she wanted to reach the moon in SSiB before Yukari's scheduled time) most of the time, so either she's overconfident, or just want things to go the way she wants.

So far, Kirisame Familiar is "cheating" under the tournament's rules, which has its merits (as people doing so explored possibilities that others didn't). When I say that they're going under the rules, I mean that some participants almost crossed the line (endangering the lives of their opponents), even if they've played "fairly". Speaking of fairness, it's to me a matter of "playstyle", such as abusing an opponent's weakness if you find one, and/or running the clock (for fighting games, for example). Except the clock is obviously against the magicians, here.

This fight may have been intended as an example of natural talent vs. hard work (Nitori questioned herself before if she was at the same level of Marisa, and even asked Mima to replace her). Speaking of Mima, she had an anti-Reimu plan, I wonder if Reimu will see through it (and find out if Mima has a part in these tactics, and even counter their ultimate setup.. with the gift of intuition). Maybe the magician team will lose, but teach (aesopify) the importance of hard work to Red 75%?

One more possibility that I didn't think before, the non-lethal nature of the spellcard system (written by Reimu), and-or its laid-back-ness (or more beauty-oriented than effectiveness, as Marisa -- of all people -- noted in Grimoire of Marisa) may reflect on Reimu's style, and create a contrast with Marisa's efforts to catch to Reimu's abilities when using Magic.

The crowd booing because of cheating? Like the other battles were clean! I didn't expect this fight to go on without bullshit since the start.

Mr.Obake said:
In conclusion: What Marisa said is true in real life where there is life to bet on the front line, such as self-defence.

But Marisa is definitely wrong when it comes to an even where fairness and honor are a must, such as in sport tournament.

Love's in grey area though. And Marisa owns the love-colored magic.

If you keep the origin of the tournament in mind Marisa's actions are totally in line with what the whole thing has been about. People talking about it being a wrestling tournament or a sporting event probably haven't ever read Kinnikuman.

Deathmatcher said:
The crowd booing because of cheating? Like the other battles were clean! I didn't expect this fight to go on without bullshit since the start.

That's my big problem at the moment. The crowd was loving it as Kaguya pulled every goddamn dirty trick she could possibly need to win, but now that someone else is doing it we've gone too far?

I don't have any problem with her tactics but her speach, on the other hand, irks me.

Guess maybe Cirno has it right.

Cirno said:
I don't understand what weaklings are thinking at all.

because your the strongest

Karesh said:
That's my big problem at the moment. The crowd was loving it as Kaguya pulled every goddamn dirty trick she could possibly need to win, but now that someone else is doing it we've gone too far?

Kaguya:
-was a fan favorite going in
-was still matching her own ability against the opponent's, rather than matching mechanical arms against the opponent's inability to phase through solid matter

SpecterVonBaren said:
I suddenly really want Kirisame Familiar to win this round, I keep hearing complaints about there not being enough "heels" in this comic and with the animosity they're generating right now I think we have some winners (For heels) here.

Me too, but also because I can laugh at the commentators of this match. THIS is how to generate heel heat, folks. Look down on your opponents, not your audience. On the other hand, turn your back on your audience, but never at your opponent. Textbook sports entertainment.

EimiYoshikawa said:
Yeah, except for the fact that you'd be fighting another human, presumably. In Touhou, your power is, almost exclusively, determined by your "race". You're born as powerful as you're going to be, virtually 100% of the time.

An Oni will always be stronger than any other race. A Vampire will always be stronger than anything but an Oni. Youkai like Yuuka, who transcend their heritage to be mightier than you would expect, are as rare as a drop of water in a great desert.

Oni are scissors. Vampires are paper. Mikos are rock.

Rock beats scissors. But also beats paper. Scissors beats paper, except that Paper can sometimes beat Scissors and would beat Rock, except that Rock can float away from reality.

Humans and kappa are mushrooms.

And this is called "BALANCE".

ExecutorBill said:
Oni are scissors. Vampires are paper. Mikos are rock.

Rock beats scissors. But also beats paper. Scissors beats paper, except that Paper can sometimes beat Scissors and would beat Rock, except that Rock can float away from reality.

Humans and kappa are mushrooms.

And this is called "BALANCE".

No, this is whats called balance. Oni are so honest that they'll fall for tricks time and time again. They are weak to sardine'd holly branches and fried beans. Vampires are weak to that and also to running water and sunlight. I don't think this applies in Touhou but traditional kappa were weak to politeness.

Humans breed much faster than youkai do and in the outside world, were consistently pushing youkai out of the way of their development, driving them extinct. This is balance. Balance is one human village versus a world of youkai.

Of course, this doesn't apply in a wrestling ring necessarily but very few myths took that into account for some reason.

Consider that while Reimu has been favored to win, she has mercilessly beaten most of the contestants and spectators with her abilities.
Marisa is goading the audience (and possibly hoping they overlook the fact she's beaten up on them just as much).

Cirno's reaction is natural as among other things she has been getting stronger in canon, and with her training in the series, she has lighting fast respawn times.

Also, Marisa is lucky that this isn't WWE style wrestling as if it was, someone would come charging into the ring to smack her.

Man, Marisa gonna start a revolution it seems... wonder if this will get Mystia in a match somehow. Kappas might even go on strike or riot. Somehow even Nazrin seems a little motivated to stand up to Shou just by her question... above all silent, serious Parsee -nods-

DHP said: Kappas might even go on strike or riot.

Oh I hope so, that would be great to see during the down time after this match.

If you're Parsee, all you'll get for trying to stand up for your friends against the organizing committee is a humiliating defeat, ground into the dirt...unless someone that was born more powerful rescues you.

But Byakuren was born a human who once upon a time might have easily fallen prey to creatures like Parsee. She just worked really hard, like Marisa, and mastered white magic as a monk, and then her fear of dying made her master black magic as well.

If Marisa believes her own speech, then she'll be okay with weak youkai cheating the spellcard rules and slitting her throat while she sleeps. They'll never beat her under spellcard rules after all. Fight fair and square and lose? To hell with that.

Nevran said:
It is a wrestling competition right?

There are face and heel, and sometimes, there are tricky face. Marisa is a tricky face.
In fact, this remind me of Eddie Guerrero Vs Brock Lesnar.

Marisa Kirisame: If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

Nevran said:
It is a wrestling competition right?

There are face and heel, and sometimes, there are tricky face. Marisa is a tricky face.
In fact, this remind me of Eddie Guerrero Vs Brock Lesnar.

Marisa Kirisame: If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

She already lies and steals, she just needed to cheat and she's Touhou Eddie Guerrero.

I don't think the audience has a problem with cheating in of itself, its just that Marisa is cheating so damn much its more than a little absurd.

Her arsenal has gone from incredibly technical and skillful wrestling backed up by magic healing to throwing everything but the kitchen sink at a team that has never cheated in this tourney and to make matters worse they pulled the old "attack the opponent's friend/partner to make him take a hit" trick on Remilia, which only makes her look heroic and them look like jerks. It'd be like Bret Hart heroically putting on a clinic against Andre the Giant (despite the massive strength difference) only to suddenly turn around and smash him over the head with a chair and then attack his partner to force him to take another hit.

Kaguya was careful with her mind games so that they were only obvious to us readers and her only blatant cheating beyond that were Aya's ridiculously slow counts and the red mist she used against Shiki (who set herself and Komachi up as the heels of that match earlier).

As for Marisa's words, they are BS. Yeah, its based on Kinnikuman, which is more about over-the-top crazy stuff, but its still a sporting competition against someone who is supposed to be her best friend. Marisa's argument fails the moment some of those "weaker" youkai she herself has bullied decides to take her words to heart and they all jump her en masse. I get the feeling she'll b*tch hard about cheating if Mystia, Wriggle, Rumia all decide to jump her at once.

Oh Cirno, YOU'RE THE BEST!! xD

I'm with Marisa all the way. She didn't give a shit about fighting with methods, that some people would consider cheating, because that is the only way. Marisa said it - it's stupid to fight someone as imba as Reimu/Remilia, only to get your ass kicked. There is nothing worse than trying your best, but still loose in the end. After all it's not the strong ones who win, but it's the winners who are strong, and if Marisa is doing everything to win, I'm okay with it. Reimu/Remilia where okay with it, too. And now they're getting their overconfidence rightiously stuffed in their *aherm* To Quote from the "Battle Royal" Doujin by ACID CLUB EAST: "A Vampire's biggest weakness is their arrogance." ... Though Reimu isn't as bad as Remilia in that case.

JakeBob said:
Then again, Remilia challenged them to a 2 vs 4, and said "We shall accept everything from you girls!". If you offer someone the chance to shoot you in the face and kick you when you're down, you have no right to start complaining when it actually happens.

Suddenly I'm remind of when Sagara Sousuke fought the Karate Club in Full Metal Panic Fumoffu. And that was hillariously awesome xD

Also...

Shin-Houin said:
Oh Cirno, YOU'RE THE BEST!! xD

THIS! xD

If you guys want to see a video about powerless situation, check this one
It's about Mystia that defeated by Reimu, then Marisa. You might get those 'weak' feeling by watching that video.

Weeellll various fanons have showed Marisa being jealous of Reimu's talents, but as far as I've been reading Touhou doujin iirc this is the only one where Marisa actually resorts to cheap tricks, as far as using tools in a match that actually forbids them... of course, I won't say it's wrong since Remi blatantly allowed them to do so, though.

Not sure how should I feel about this Marisa, either to be neutral or to dislike her.